Who kills more bass

[surferman]

There has been alot of discussion lately about gillnetters and the loss of striped bass. Do anyone know who kills more striped bass commercial or recreational fisherman?

[gjb1969]

do we as hook and line fisherman have big nets do we set those nets set days at a time do we get tones of fish i think not even the small boats who get hundreds at a time so what do u think:rolleyes:

[jimbob]

I have thought about this a lot. I think it is the recreational fishermen. When you think of all the regulations imposed on all the other fisheries like Fluke, Sea Bass,Blackfish, Porgies, Flounder. The Party and Charter boats switch to Striper fishing. In N.Y. fishermen on the charter boats can keep 2 Bass. many times these boats limit out. The Commercial guys have weight limits or fish limits when they are out of tags they stop fishing. There are no seasonal limits on party boats, they fish all season. Recreational fishermen who fish on thier own boats are targeting Bass more than they used to because of regulations on other species. I think we owe it to the fish think about our impact on the fishery. I would like to see some regulations on all species that protect the entire environment for all species of fish based on scientific data rather than political agendas.

[gjb1969]

dude have u ever seen the boats in the south that still net bass if not i think u should look :huh:

[jimbob]

I am not trying to defend the commercial guys. and I can only speak for the areas that I fish, N.Y. to Maine. I have seen many changes in the fisheries since I started fishing in the mid 70s. I can't speak for the gillnetters in the south and I am not aware of how much is going on. I would like to see what is going on south of me. Feel free to direct me. If it is truly that bad and they are catching more bass than recreational fishermen then, like I said the fish should be regulated for the fish rather than for political agendas. There are many things wrong with the regulations, but in the northeast there are a lot more recreational fishermen than commercials. I must add that I am just looking at what I see in my travels and what I read in the local papers. I could be wrong.

[Monty]

Jimbob,
I feel your point about how pressure has been put on stripers because the restrictiions on other fish keep getting tighter is a good one. Looking at the local "fisherman magazine" this week, I went through the pages, lots of pics of kept bass, especially the "first" bass for some. It got to the point I was turned off by the pics of "two bass each on the charters".
Gets to be a slaughter house for the recs.
So they keep closing seasons on other fish, raising sizes and decreasing the limits on other fish. Mean while we watch this slaughter fest on our beloved stripers by recreational fisherman.
I know nothing about the commercial industry. But based on that almost nothing makes common sense anymore, I am sure that. Is screwed up to (with a gill netter within casting range in NJ, thts proof enough).




I am not trying to defend the commercial guys. and I can only speak for the areas that I fish, N.Y. to Maine. I have seen many changes in the fisheries since I started fishing in the mid 70s. I can't speak for the gillnetters in the south and I am not aware of how much is going on. I would like to see what is going on south of me. Feel free to direct me. If it is truly that bad and they are catching more bass than recreational fishermen then, like I said the fish should be regulated for the fish rather than for political agendas. There are many things wrong with the regulations, but in the northeast there are a lot more recreational fishermen than commercials. I must add that I am just looking at what I see in my travels and what I read in the local papers. I could be wrong.

[DarkSkies]

I don't want to slam anyone's opinion here, you're all entitled. However the simple fact is according to collected data, recreational fishermen harvest more fish than commercial fishermen when you're talking about striped bass.

By this, I mean that...

1. When you consider commercial fishermen as those who have paid for a commercial licence.

2. When you consider recreational fishermen to be the aggregate of people who own boats for their use, and others such as party/charter boats who hire out to bring anglers on trips, and those anglers who fish from shore...

Recreational fishermen harvest more striped bass than commercial fishermen.

I know there are all sorts of variables, and "yeah, but...." arguments. You can tell me about illegal catches of commercials, tons of dead bycatch, and you would be right on all those points. On the other hand, recreational catches go unreported as well, and we need a standardized method to compare.

So strictly going by statistical methods, we as recs take more than commercials. That doesn't mean there are some commercial fishermen who take great advantage and should be prosecuted.

But I think if you want to compare, you need to have some reasonable framework for doing so.

On another site, I put up a lot of posts and stats in this area. I haven't had time to search for the original links I saved.
These stats are all locatable with a google search, inquiring about yearly striped bass catches broken down by angler category. I'll try to search and post when I get back from Montauk. If anyone can post up in the meantime, it would be much appreciated.

[gjb1969]

there numbers are bs big time last year i know how many bass i got a h***of a lot less than a net so they can feed that someone else i know i dont get more than a boat most of the time i dont get my limit of fish so they are full of it go on u tube and look at what happens to bass just a few states away from us and u teel me we get more bass than a boat with a net:2flip::burn:i was just on youtube i could not find the video of the guys with a pick up pulling in a net full of stripers i wish i could find it

[buckethead]

The numbers of the recreational and commercial have to be close. There could be 50 guys on one party boat. They can continuously go out and catch their limit of the day. Yet some states give out tags to commericals and once they use up their tags they are done.

Take a look at this video. There are a lot of guys in this one spot. Reminds me of Montauk.

PFXajBVu7Ks

[DarkSkies]

Now ya got me into a compulsive search, G. :HappyWave: I started looking for the data to back my statements up. I came across an interesting article while searching , so I posted it here:



(Note that the stats here are just for Maine.)

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=760&page=5
[A subcommittee of the commission concluded that the rule change would increase the overall annual catch only about 1.7 percent. That's because most stripers are caught and killed by recreational anglers, who aren't limited by annual quotas, Meserve said.
In 2006, for example, recreational fishermen landed about 29 million pounds of striped bass and commercial boats landed about 7 million pounds. The numbers do not include fish caught and thrown back]

[Pebbles]

I did some searching and the results show that the recreational fisherman landed over 25 milliion pounds of striped bass.

Whereas, commercial fisherman only landed 14.7 million pounds of striped bass.

These figures are for 2008.

Landings

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/fishwatch/images/atl_striped_bass_thumb_land.gif (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/fishwatch/images/atl_striped_bass_chart_land.gif)Landings refer to the amount of catch that is brought to land. The most recent year for which both recreational and commercial data are currently available is 2008. Recreational fisheries occur in all 14 states/jurisdictions within the management unit. They accounted for 78% (by weight) of the 2008 landings of the Atlantic stocks, and four states (Massachusetts, New Jersey, Maryland and Virginia) have accounted for the majority of recreational striped bass landings since 2000. Total recreational landings in 2008 were about 25.7 million pounds), above the average amount of fish landed during 2000 through 2007 and over twice as many fish as landed in 1995 when the stock was declared restored.

Commercial fisheries occur in 8 of the 14 states/jurisdictions within the management unit. Total commercial landings in 2008 were a little over 7 million pounds), considerably below landings of 14.7 million pounds landed in 1973. The current minimum size restrictions of 18 inches in Chesapeake Bay and 28 inches along the coast are higher than early 1970s when size restrictions ranged from 12 inches to 24 inches.

Note: The landings presented are domestic commercial and recreational landings.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/fishwatch/species/atl_striped_bass.htm

[DarkSkies]

I was hoping someone would get around to posting some figures. There are tons more out there, but the nice thing about these is that they are recent. Thanks, Pebbles. :kiss: :heart:

[Pebbles]

Here is a chart from the years 1947-2005. Recreational was charted from 1985 to 2005. It also shows recreational fisherman taking more bass.

8004

[DarkSkies]

G, I'm still looking for that NC netters video, but here's another interesting article I came across.

(To be fair to your point of view, there are comments in the end of the article that talk about the bycatch from dead bass being thrown back by gillnetters, and how that should be more accurately recorded. I agree with that, and feel that some netters have such egregious violations their boats should be siezed, However, under the law, these violations have to be documented and proven.

There are also comments about poaching which attribute a significant number of bass taken by poaching. However, you and I fish urban areas. We see what people take home with them, legally and illegally. I just do not agree, based on personal experience, that shore-based poachers are putting a significant dent in the biomass. Statistically, most of these catches are made by recreational boaters. )






http://www.reel-time.com/lead-article/striped-bass-rollovers%E2%80%A6-another-bad-idea-2/

STRIPED BASS ROLLOVERS… ANOTHER BAD IDEA…



Oct 10th, 2009 | By Capt. John McMurray (http://www.reel-time.com/author/capt-john-mcmurray/) | Category: Conservation (http://www.reel-time.com/category/articles/conservation/), Lead Article (http://www.reel-time.com/category/lead-article/)
Addendum II will comprise yet another small but real drain on striped bass
Today is 10/8… It’s 5:00PM and I’m on a train home from the Striped Bass Advisory Panel (AP) meeting. I have to mention that I’ve been awake since 3:00AM and I’m running purely on caffeine at the moment so please excuse the likely mistakes. This AP meeting was arranged so that ASMFC staff could update the Panel on the results of the 2009 updated stock assessment that was literally just released this week. But it was also so that that we could review “Draft Addendum II” to Amendment 6 to the Interstate Fishery Management Plan for Atlantic Striped Bass, which deals with unused commercial quota roll over.
http://www.reel-time.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mcmurray-striper-6-26-02-300x158.jpg
Let’s begin with the former, and I’ll try to be very brief due to a lack of time, space and of course reader attention spans (no offence… I know my eyes glaze over when I read a lot of this stuff). The short version is that the stock is still not overfished and overfishing is not occurring. The population is not under imminent threat, and it is not declining to unhealthy levels. Although, it has taken a notable dip from its 2004 high, it still remains well above the thresholds for management action. Fishing mortality is believed to be well below the target, and the number of older fish (age 8+) in the population has fallen, but seems to have stabilized. I’m not so sure I believe all of this to be the case, but I’ll get to that in a minute. Right now, let’s talk about Addendum II.

The Addendum proposes to allow any unused coastal commercial quota of striped bass to be rolled over from one year to the next. To be more clear, the uncaught commercial striped bass quota from one year (the “underage”) would be added to the following year’s quota and thus be allowed to be caught then. So if New York’s commercial fisherman, for instance, caught all but 100,000 pounds of their quota this year, that 100k pounds would be added to next year’s quota.

I don’t really get it… I mean, such quotas as I understand them, are meant to act as hard ceiling that should not be exceeded, but in this case the ASMFC seems to want to use the quota as a target to be achieved. Addendum II explicitly states that “avoiding a quota overage signifies managerial success.” (“While avoiding a quota overage signifies managerial success, a quota underage represents lost opportunity to commercial harvesters.”) While it is true that a state’s failure to fill its entire quota does diminish commercial fishers’ opportunities to profit from the public striped bass resource, it is also true that it is a practical impossibility to set regulations in a manner that assures that a quota will be met but not exceeded.
http://www.reel-time.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/J.-Bay-release-2.jpg (http://www.reel-time.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/J.-Bay-release-2.jpg)

Regardless, there are abundant reasons for precaution here and while the proposed commercial rollover in the grand scheme doesn’t look like it will increase mortality all that much, it will still increase mortality, and that’s not good right now. Undoubtedly, we’re beginning to see more and more warning signs with striped bass. The chorus of complaints is getting harder and harder to blow off. There are constant anecdotal reports that striped bass abundance at the northern and now southern ends of its range have decreased sharply. Anecdotal evidence from anglers, throughout the coast, suggest that striped bass are less available than in recent years, and that with the exception of a handful of very large fish that may have been spawned during the moratorium years of the 1980s, the average size of the fish caught by anglers is declining.

Then there’s Mycobacteriosis, a disease affecting striped bass, which we still don’t know a whole lot about. It could very possibly be a serious threat to the striped bass population, particularly in Chesapeake Bay, where it has its greatest impact on the older females that spawn in the largest striped bass nursery area on the coast. Recruitment in 2006 and 2007 was some of the worst in recent years, while the 2008 Maryland young of the year index, traditionally a reliable measure of future striped bass abundance, was merely 3.7% of the long term average. The winter tagging cruise that takes place off Virginia and North Carolina in January caught the fewest striped bass in its 22-year history.

Any one of those factors, taken on its own, is probably not significant. Striped bass typically experience very irregular spawning success, in which dominant, average and below-average year classes follow one another without discernable pattern. Weather can affect fishing success, whether by anglers or by research vessels, in any given year, and changes in water temperature and/or forage abundance may affect the annual distribution of striped bass. However, when viewed as a whole, particularly considering the potential impact of mycobacteriosis, there is more than adequate reason to approach any increase in the actual striped bass harvest with caution.

Unfortunately, the ASMFC has not been precautionary. It has incrementally increased harvest not by a single coordinated action, but rather by a series of measures that one Board member has likened to “death by a thousand cuts.” In a single session, the Board created fisheries in Delaware and Pennsylvania for striped bass smaller than the 28-inch coastal minimum, eliminated the quota on the Chesapeake Bay spring “trophy” fishery and permitted Maryland to extend its December season by more than two weeks. Addendum II would comprise yet another small but very real drain on striped bass abundance by authorizing a de facto increase in commercial harvest.

Add to this the fact that that allowing a commercial rollover would likely provide an incentive to under report harvest. The ability to increase next year’s quota by failing to report a fully caught quota is ample motivation for commercial fishermen to under-report their catch because selling fish under the table could actually result in a larger quota the following year. And we all well know that there’s already a big problem with such black market striped bass fisheries.

It’s worthy of noting here that that those black market fisheries are not accounted for in the assessment process. During the AP meeting discussion, the Technical Committee rep gave some pretty poor reasons why such known black market fisheries are not accounted for, even though it seems to be well known and has been repeatedly documented by arrests and convictions. They claim there is just no way they can get an accurate estimate of such fisheries, even if they gathered records from the various enforcement agencies.

It’s also worth noting here that the commercial fishing AP rep from New York complained that they hadn’t fished their quota in a few years and thus should be entitled to those fish in the following years. I made the counter point that when you figure in all the poaching that takes place in Lower New York Harbor, I’m certain it’s been filled, and then some. Judging by my anecdotal observations in my neck of the woods, I’d even go so far as to say that the illegal catch may even be more than the total legal catch. While my assertions were written off as hyperbole by the commercial rep, anyone who has spent any time in Lower New York Harbor knows that the problem is a monumental one. There has historically been a large scale poaching problem here. There just isn’t much the DEC or anyone else can do about it. Although I cannot attest to it personally, there are plenty of folks who claim such fisheries exist in other states as well. I feel it’s very unlikely there is any such thing as a commercial quota underage with striped bass in most states.
But, hey, maybe I’m wrong. We could assume all fisherman are honest and report all their landings, and there is little to no poaching. If that’s the case as some commercial reps claim, could it be possible that the failure to harvest a state’s full quota is due to a contraction of the striped bass population? Brad Burns of Stripers Forever seems to think so “If the state fails to reach its quota over the course of an entire season, it is a very good indication that there simply are not as many striped bass out there as the fishery managers estimated. Given the fishing reports that we have been receiving this is a very likely scenario.”

There could indeed be some truth to this. My fishing has been substandard the last couple of seasons and the chorus of complaints coast-wide is just too loud for it to be a coincidence. And we can’t ignore the fact that the stock has been on the decline since 2004. Yet such fluctuations are not out of the ordinary and can easily be explained away by the good year-classes leaving the population. The Technical Committee seems to think the stock will begin showing an upward trend when the newer strong year-classes come into play. Still, I can’t help but think there is something that the assessment scientists are missing. And right now, I’m just not sure what that is.

It could be the mortality coming from the relatively new winter fisheries in Maryland, Virginia and North Carolina. These fisheries are composed almost completely of large spawning fish and until recently were never utilized. And the current MRFSS data collection system doesn’t sample during those first months of the year (what they consider to be “Wave 1”). And of course it could be the poaching. Still, the stock size and age distribution should show the effects of this fishery. Regardless, we do indeed MRFSS sampling for those Wave I fisheries because undoubtedly that fishery is resulting in a lot of big dead bass. Unfortunately , it doesn’t appear to be forthcoming.

And speaking of MRFSS, we’re still using the same old system to determine all these striped bass numbers, and such a system has been widely discredited. Of course, it’s still the best available data, but to me it would make sense to wait until the new MIRP system is up and running before we take any more steps in increase harvest, however incremental they may be.

But getting back to Addendum II, “Given the choice between underage and overage, the public interest is better served by assuring that the striped bass resource is not overfished,” writes CCA NY’s Chairman Charles Witek, “and that the underage is “reinvested” in the spawning stock to better assure abundance in future years.” I couldn’t agree more.

Until the uncertainties relating to striped bass abundance, including both trends in recruitment and future abundance and the effects of mycobacteriosis on the overall health of the stock, are determined in the next baseline stock assessment, consideration of a rollover of uncaught commercial quota is both premature and irresponsible. As representatives of the public interest and as stewards of the public striped bass resource, the Board is obligated to take a risk-averse approach to striped bass management, and to maintain the status quo as to the rollover of unused quota. Furthermore, the ASMFC should take clear recognition of the fact that the best time to resolve a problem is before it actually occurs.


Comments:


Capt Skip Montello (http://www.northcoastangler.com/) October 13th, 2009 9:07 am (http://www.reel-time.com/lead-article/striped-bass-rollovers%E2%80%A6-another-bad-idea-2/#comment-210)I have kept striper catch log for more than 10 years now as part of my “catch and release” charter business. My “real” stats are alarming to say the least. My landings are down significantly, on the order of 52% over that time period. And not to mention how few sub 20 inch fish we landed this past season is surely telling me that the future of strped bass is in serious danger. I am sure you are aware of the unbelievble commercial “by-catch” disasters that are happening every day by gill netters and mid-waters herring boats. Does of this get into your meetings? These boats do not give a damn about stripers when they set their nets… I lived through the debacle that was the late 70’s through the 80’s and I can’t understand why these folks on the AP are so unwilling to put the “brakes on”!!!! Thanks,Skip

<LI id=comment-211>Tweets that mention STRIPED BASS ROLLOVERS… ANOTHER BAD IDEA… | Conservation at Reel-Time.com -- Topsy.com (http://topsy.com/tb/bit.ly/mSB48) October 13th, 2009 1:25 pm (http://www.reel-time.com/lead-article/striped-bass-rollovers%E2%80%A6-another-bad-idea-2/#comment-211)[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by mncahill and Sam Sifton. Sam Sifton said: Who gets the fish? http://bit.ly/mSB48 [...]
John 4 Bluefin (http://www.savethebluefin.com/) October 13th, 2009 2:08 pm (http://www.reel-time.com/lead-article/striped-bass-rollovers%E2%80%A6-another-bad-idea-2/#comment-212)“death by a thousand cuts” is unfortunately a great summary of what is happening here. The value of each striped bass to the economic engine of each mid-Atlantic state is far greater alive than dead in every scenario. this is like making an argument for catching and reducing bunker for inclusion in over the counter pills. anyone with a boat on the eastern seaboard has a stake in this. if we lose striped bass again from a recreational perspective what are the impacts? certainly enormous economically and if I were a boat builder I would worry about how future anglers will justify a boat purchase if the bass dry up. short fluke season, sea bass closed, some blues and no bass? all for $500-$1500 per month for a boat payment? tough to make that work. Speak up, take action and write the letter to Washington. You can bet the harvesters are totally united and barraging Nichola Meserve at FMP with letters and request to allow the killing of more stripers. your stripers!

[jimbob]

I heard about the rollover idea a few weeks ago from Stripers Forever. They had letters and adresses for state governers along the east coast stating opposition to this plan. I hope everyone reading this thread is already a member if not, take a few moments to check out their the website and join, it's free.

[DarkSkies]

Thanks for the SF plug, Jimbob. :HappyWave: I had been meaning to mention them. Here's the Stripers Forever website. If you want to learn about them, check out the site. :thumbsup:


http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/index

[baitstealer]

I'm surprised that the recreational fisherman have higher numbers. There are a lot a poachers out their I bet is everything was counted than the commercials would come on top.

[gjb1969]

i dont care who comes up with bs numbers i will never get more fish than a net how many times have we bin fed bs and beleaved it well i am done with it i will never fall for the babanna in the tail pipe and most of there numbers are bs and (NO ONE ) AND I MEEN ON ONE WILL MAKE ME FEEL DIFF):burn:THE NETTERS ALMOST WIPED OUT STRIPERS ONCE BEFORE NO ONE KNOWS THE TRUE NUMBERS GOOD RECORDS WERE NOT KEPT IT WAS ABOUGHT MONEY THEN AND IT STILL IS TODAY SO THE NUMBERS I TRUST AS MUCH AS I TRUST A REDNECK FROM THE DEEP SOUTH AND I KNOW THEY ARE FULL OF SH**SO IF PEOPLE WANT TO TRUST THOSE NUMBERS I KNOW I WILL NEVER:moon:

[wish4fish]

http://www.reel-time.com/lead-article/striped-bass-rollovers%E2%80%A6-another-bad-idea-2/

STRIPED BASS ROLLOVERS… ANOTHER BAD IDEA…



Oct 10th, 2009 | By Capt. John McMurray (http://www.reel-time.com/author/capt-john-mcmurray/) | Category: Conservation (http://www.reel-time.com/category/articles/conservation/), Lead Article (http://www.reel-time.com/category/lead-article/)

I made the counter point that when you figure in all the poaching that takes place in Lower New York Harbor, I’m certain it’s been filled, and then some. Judging by my anecdotal observations in my neck of the woods, I’d even go so far as to say that the illegal catch may even be more than the total legal catch. While my assertions were written off as hyperbole by the commercial rep, anyone who has spent any time in Lower New York Harbor knows that the problem is a monumental one. There has historically been a large scale poaching problem here. There just isn’t much the DEC or anyone else can do about it.



dude if you think ny harbor is bad for poaching, there are so many places in rb they can hide fish it aint funny, poachers in bayonne, s amboy, pert amboy, keansburg, union beach, cliffwood,keyport, the illeagals know how to hide the fish, and if you go near any dock you see asians and spanish takeing small stripers blackfish and seabass and they never throw them back when no one is around. those numbers should be in with the other catches, but i didnt see any places where they have poaching figures. so the figure system itself is messed up.:burn:

[fishinmission78]

dude if you think ny harbor is bad for poaching, there are so many places in rb they can hide fish it aint funny, poachers in bayonne, s amboy, pert amboy, keansburg, union beach, cliffwood,keyport, the illeagals know how to hide the fish, and if you go near any dock you see asians and spanish takeing small stripers blackfish and seabass and they never throw them back when no one is around. those numbers should be in with the other catches, but i didnt see any places where they have poaching figures. so the figure system itself is messed up.:burn:

Take a ride around any back bay area or dock, Barnegat and south. You will see the same thing. And if you are talking about crabs, forget it. I have seen the immigrants take crabs as small as 3". How can you even get any meat out of a 3" crab?

[rockhopper]

Take a ride around any back bay area or dock, Barnegat and south. You will see the same thing. And if you are talking about crabs, forget it. I have seen the immigrants take crabs as small as 3". How can you even get any meat out of a 3" crab?

Same thing in any LI pier or harbor area.http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

[plugaholic]

Yeah, well in NJ they should eliminate the bonus tags. A lot of guys take advantage. That would save a lot of bass.

[Frankiesurf]

If guys are going to take advantage of the tags then what makes you think they will abide by the law if they were eliminated?

Some people just don't care and will take what they please. The only thing to stop them is constant enforcement and that is never an option.

[basshunter]

Some people just don't care and will take what they please. The only thing to stop them is constant enforcement and that is never an option.

good point