allow smaller stripers as keepers in NJ?

[ledhead36]

I don't agree with it. What do you guys think?

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/article_c8a06b49-2b3c-5ed6-b1e7-859478c0976e.html


Smaller stripers may soon be keepers in New Jersey

By RICHARD DEGENER, Staff Writer | Posted: Friday, January 8, 2010 | 2 comments (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/article_c8a06b49-2b3c-5ed6-b1e7-859478c0976e.html#user-comment-area)

GALLOWAY TOWNSHIP - Anglers may get to keep a smaller striped bass if the New Jersey Marine Fisheries Council has its way.
The council decided Thursday to ask the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, a panel of East Coast states that regulates migratory fish, if it could lower the limit to 24 inches for one striper per angler per day. A second striped bass could be kept if it is 32 inches or larger.
Regulations currently allow two striped bass per day at 28 inches or greater. A move to one 24-inch fish and one 32-inch fish meets something called a "conservation equivalency," which means it would have the same impact on stocks from allowing two 28-inch fish.
The change already has met the ASMFC outlines for a conservation equivalency but would still have to be formally approved by the commission.
The council decision followed a heated debate at Thursday's meeting that Chairman Gil Ewing said included nine anglers favoring the change and two opposing it. One commercial fisherman, Marty Buzas, of Wildwood, made a pitch to allow a commercial harvest, which currently is not allowed in New Jersey with striped bass.
Most of the party and charter boat operators favored a smaller fish, as regulations have cut back many traditional catches, and it would be one way to keep customers happy as it increases the odds of them catching a keeper.
"I do about 80 striper trips a year. It would be a boost to the fishery with so many other closures," Capt. Eddie Yates said.
Some argued the change would reduce mortality, although one maintained the 32-inch size would take out "the big breeders."
The Shark River Surf Anglers Association opposed the change, arguing the smaller size would increase the number of fish harvested.
One captain argued for a range of 24 to 28 inches for one fish and a second fish more than 28 inches. This would not meet the conservation equivalency.
Dave Showell, of the Absecon Bay Sportsman Center, expressed concern that a 24-inch size could lead some to throw fish that size back, dead, as they catch larger fish during the day and hope to upgrade.
"It could be a problem if they catch a 24-inch, then catch a 44-inch. That 24-inch will look pretty little," Showell said.
The council voted to move forward with the process but the change could take awhile. Besides needing ASFMC approval, a change involving striped bass regulations also takes an act of the state Legislature, said Tom McCloy, a state fishing administrator.

[finchaser]

Not so it protects all 25 to 32 inch fish and lets them breed for 4 to 5 years before they can be kept. Also protects large fish as you can only keep one not 2

Better yet 1) 24 to 28 and one over 36" would rebuild fish even better yet as it worked before.

Great law and do away with the bonus tag

[gjb1969]

sounds good to me one small and one big i dont like to get two big fish and go on the train with them its not a good thing so one small and one big saves my back and u only need one good bass to eat u get a lot of meat two is just overkill i can fee my family for a week off half of one good fish so if they change the rules i am cool with it come on spring:clapping::fishing:

[DarkSkies]

Smaller stripers may soon be keepers in New Jersey

By RICHARD DEGENER, Staff Writer | Posted: Friday, January 8, 2010 | 2 comments (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/article_c8a06b49-2b3c-5ed6-b1e7-859478c0976e.html#user-comment-area)

GALLOWAY TOWNSHIP - Anglers may get to keep a smaller striped bass if the New Jersey Marine Fisheries Council has its way.
The council decided Thursday to ask the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, a panel of East Coast states that regulates migratory fish, if it could lower the limit to 24 inches for one striper per angler per day. A second striped bass could be kept if it is 32 inches or larger.
Regulations currently allow two striped bass per day at 28 inches or greater. A move to one 24-inch fish and one 32-inch fish meets something called a "conservation equivalency," which means it would have the same impact on stocks from allowing two 28-inch fish.
The change already has met the ASMFC outlines for a conservation equivalency but would still have to be formally approved by the commission.
The council decision followed a heated debate at Thursday's meeting that Chairman Gil Ewing said included nine anglers favoring the change and two opposing it. One commercial fisherman, Marty Buzas, of Wildwood, made a pitch to allow a commercial harvest, which currently is not allowed in New Jersey with striped bass.
Most of the party and charter boat operators favored a smaller fish, as regulations have cut back many traditional catches, and it would be one way to keep customers happy as it increases the odds of them catching a keeper.
"I do about 80 striper trips a year. It would be a boost to the fishery with so many other closures," Capt. Eddie Yates said.
Some argued the change would reduce mortality, although one maintained the 32-inch size would take out "the big breeders."
The Shark River Surf Anglers Association opposed the change, arguing the smaller size would increase the number of fish harvested.
One captain argued for a range of 24 to 28 inches for one fish and a second fish more than 28 inches. This would not meet the conservation equivalency.
Dave Showell, of the Absecon Bay Sportsman Center, expressed concern that a 24-inch size could lead some to throw fish that size back, dead, as they catch larger fish during the day and hope to upgrade.
"It could be a problem if they catch a 24-inch, then catch a 44-inch. That 24-inch will look pretty little," Showell said.
The council voted to move forward with the process but the change could take awhile. Besides needing ASFMC approval, a change involving striped bass regulations also takes an act of the state Legislature, said Tom McCloy, a state fishing administrator.



I highlighted a few of the valid concerns in that article. I think there are 2 pressing things that need to be addressed for the future:

1. Do away with the bonus tag. I don't care that we have that as a set-aside because there is no commercial bass fishing in NJ. There are way too many people who abuse that bonus tag. I know this from personal experience in NJ.

2. Fishing mortality. There are many fishermen who are careful when releasing a fish. I would say that most are careful. :thumbsup:

However, with new people entering the field every year, there are quite a few anglers who probably have a high mortality rate because they just don't know how to release a fish. I lost count of how many times on the beach I tried to educate people this year about releasing a fish. I believe mortality rates are at least what the ASMFC has listed, if not higher.

And the new regulations talk about "conservation equivalency" which is further explained here:
(post #4)
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=5533

People need to understand that if we drop the limit for 1, then the limit must be raised for the other by an equivalent amount.

NY has a similar system, one at 28", and the 2nd one must be 40" or better, thereby protecting what are thought to be the most prolific breeders.

My ideal would be to mirror these NY limits all up and down the whole E Coast, Maryland and Va included. Or... even limit the catch to one at 28" period, and only one trophy bass allowed per year. If my wish list could be granted, that would be my biggest one. Or, what Finchaser suggested above would be perfectly acceptable to me. :thumbsup:

I realize that might not be the most popular scenario, so I would try to support whatever they came up with.

We all have to find some way to compromise if we want to get things done. http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/icons/icon3.gif

In my view, a small change for the better is better than nothing.

I still feel the stocks are way down, based on numerous specific observations and published articles by people much more experienced than me. I continue to feel that with only small changes, we will face a 2nd moratorium on bass fishing within 5 years.

We do have to start somewhere. If this seems to be popular, I'll jump on board and stump for it.

[VSdreams]

I'm all for it as long as its the same for everyone. And I agree you should get rid of the bonus tags. It unfairly favors guys who have boats and can hide the bass. When they get caught they say oops my mistake here is my bonus tag. :burn:


"

One fisherman told
the officers he had a “bonus” card; which would allow the taking of a third fish if the card
is filled out immediately upon the retention of the “bonus/trophy” fish. When the officers
asked to inspect the “bonus card”, it had been stowed inside a bag in the forward cabin
of the vessel and when retrieved was not filled out to indicate retention of an additional
fish."

[basshunter]

Agreed, one at 24", on at 32". I would like to see them say something about keeping the biggest bass, tho. In Canada they have trophy pike and walleye lakes. You can't keep anything you catch, and all the fish in there are trophy sized. I would like to see someone either my generation or my grandchildrens generation be able to catch a 90pound striped bass one day. That would be awesome.

[Monty]

I would really like the 1 fish 28" or bigger and either eliminate the bonus tag or make it a 1x per year thing.

Is what they proposed 1 fish greater than 24" and another greater than 32"?

If so, it is terrible.

Or is it what Finchaser said:
"protects all 25 to 32 inch fish and lets them breed for 4 to 5 years before they can be kept. Also protects large fish as you can only keep one not 2"?

What about all the fish that were caught this year between 24" and 27 3/4"? Would have been a lot of them kept I think (1 per person).

Just the mentality of people is a joke "open up commercial fishing in NJ".

:huh:

[clamchucker]

Or is it what Finchaser said:
"protects all 25 to 32 inch fish and lets them breed for 4 to 5 years before they can be kept. Also protects large fish as you can only keep one not 2"?



Monty, I am not sure I am quite on board with this, but it does make sense. Whenever we take the boat out and there are baitfish around, we usually come close to catching our limit, even end up releasing a few. Many of the limit bass I have seen on the boat and on party boats range from exactly 28" to 32". I think the new regulations may result in lesser numbers of keepers being taken from party and recreational boats.
By making one at 24", a lot of shore anglers will catch one at 24" and go home. Last year I did not see a lot of bass 32" or over in the surf except for the spring run.
I do agree with your sentiments. Even though it might complicate things, I would be pleased to see a slot for the higher limit, say you make it a 2nd fish from 32-40", and nothing bigger than that. I think that would help us in the long run.

[seamonkey]

I agree with you guys about eliminating the bonus tags. They are not needed.

[Monty]

I am not sure on this either.


Monty, I am not sure I am quite on board with this, but it does make sense. Whenever we take the boat out and there are baitfish around, we usually come close to catching our limit, even end up releasing a few. Many of the limit bass I have seen on the boat and on party boats range from exactly 28" to 32". I think the new regulations may result in lesser numbers of keepers being taken from party and recreational boats.
By making one at 24", a lot of shore anglers will catch one at 24" and go home. Last year I did not see a lot of bass 32" or over in the surf except for the spring run.
I do agree with your sentiments. Even though it might complicate things, I would be pleased to see a slot for the higher limit, say you make it a 2nd fish from 32-40", and nothing bigger than that. I think that would help us in the long run.

[fishinmission78]

I'm all for it as long as its the same for everyone.


Same for everyone, even the illeagals.:clapping:

[storminsteve]

Eliminate the bonus tag, one fish to take home. That's all you need if you want big bass to still be around.

[surfwalker]

By RICHARD DEGENER, Staff Writer | Posted: Friday, January 8, 2010 |

“Most of the party and charter boat operators favored a smaller fish, as regulations have cut back many traditional catches, and it would be one way to keep customers happy as it increases the odds of them catching a keeper”.

Let me state this first, I have nothing against anyone keeping a Striper for the table, within reason. I do have a problem with keeping customers happy at the expense of the Striper. Regulations of keepers should be about the Striper, common sense.


“One commercial fisherman, Marty Buzas, of Wildwood, made a pitch to allow a commercial harvest, which currently is not allowed in New Jersey with striped bass”.

I also have a problem with anyone even mentioning a commercial harvest. The people that represented all the fishers of the Striper to attain Game Fish status worked too hard toward the on going replenishments of the future stocks. I’m sure that the recreational dollar surpasses that of the commercial dollar to the state, correct me if wrong.


Bonus tags- Although I have participated in the yearly log, I have never used a tag, and stopped my participation altogether a few years back. I never could fully understand the concept of taking a third Striper. Do away with it.

Now I am not a person of any science, all I know comes from books I have read and discussions on the beach. Also from seeing hardly any Bass caught to nearly being able to sustain its population through restrictions and no commercial harvest in some states. I don’t have any solutions, only opinions, and we can’t please everyone who targets the Striper. But it starts with the Striper and how to keep this fish at a constant rise.

So it seems to me after doing some research, talking to some regulars and then reading finchasers and Darks posts, that either one of these I would support. Now, I am not a meat fisherman, and I have nothing against that, so maybe my view of this topic is slanted.

A female Bass will be 20% mature at around 4 years (around 24”) of age and it’s estimated to have around 200,000 eggs. But to reach full maturity they have to be around 8 years old (around 28” to 31”). At this age it is estimated that they will have anywhere from 800,000 to over a million eggs. That’s a lot of eggs, but there are many variables involved. The salinity of the water, pollution, the drift, inconsistent water temperatures, and predators, all play a part in the failure/success of the egg. I’d like to see as many eggs as possible given a chance during the spawning season. Also, a Bass over 50lbs has the potential to carry over 4 million eggs. It’s been stated that larger Bass produce larger and healthier eggs and have a better chance of survival.

But like finchaser states- only one large Bass could be taken.

The more large spawning means a better chance of the Bass reproducing and sustaining an ever growing pressure from fishers.

[LennyD]

I think they should Eliminate the bonus tag, last year i fished a lot from my kayak, so in the spring run i saw lots of boats catching 30-40 even 50lb bass, most of them released the fish with care, but im sure there are people out there who wont stop after the limit.
Few years ago fished from party boats a few times, i have seen guys "Captain's friend" whom after 2 fish (bass) kept fishing and fishing because they had success. I was disgusted, especially cuz they took over the back of the boat spot and wont let other costumers to fish there who could not catch a thing. ( they were chumming so that was the best spot to have a chance to catch a fish)
Someone should really check party boats and other boats for catching limits. I know its not possible but they are the biggest threat.
Im fine with one @ 24" and one @ 32 and over!
Small fish taste better anyway!

[rip316]

Fishinmission, I think we should be able to do a citizens arrest or some kind of complaint if we see the ILLEGALS keeping short fish because THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME.

[hookset]

One captain argued for a range of 24 to 28 inches for one fish and a second fish more than 28 inches. This would not meet the conservation equivalency.
Dave Showell, of the Absecon Bay Sportsman Center, expressed concern that a 24-inch size could lead some to throw fish that size back, dead, as they catch larger fish during the day and hope to upgrade.
"It could be a problem if they catch a 24-inch, then catch a 44-inch. That 24-inch will look pretty little," Showell said.
The council voted to move forward with the process but the change could take awhile. Besides needing ASFMC approval, a change involving striped bass regulations also takes an act of the state Legislature, said Tom McCloy, a state fishing administrator.


1 at 24-28", and another one at 28" isn't much different from what we have now. Too many boat captains are all about putting the meat in the box. Anything that will get them more meat, they're on board with. How does that even come close to conservation?

No bonus tag, and we get to keep one fish, period. Simplify everthing. They should also have the same rules for Maryland and Virginia, but this will probably never happen.

[Mike O]

I'm content with the way things are now. In the last few years I have released more fish than I have kept and I mostly only get to fish once a week. For the people that fish more than that, I'm sure that they catch a lot more fish than I do. There are more stripers around now then there was 25 or more years ago, so we must be doing something right. And like someone said earlier, who wants to lug 2 fish off the beach when you have been fishing maybe all night or day. One keeper for the table is all I need no matter what size, and the rest go back in the suds.

Mike O

[lostatsea]

Not so it protects all 25 to 32 inch fish and lets them breed for 4 to 5 years before they can be kept. Also protects large fish as you can only keep one not 2

Better yet 1) 24 to 28 and one over 36" would rebuild fish even better yet as it worked before.

Great law and do away with the bonus tag

Finchaser, why not just say we can only keep 1 fish period. whether from shore or boat? If the bass stocks are down, wouldn't that one fish limit allow us to rebuild the breeders up quickly?

[hookset]

Don't agree with it. There has to be people out there who take advantage of the system as it is. We are able to keep smaller bass, in my opinion, that will just decrease the poplulation further.

[DarkSkies]

Some one asked this question on the Bass barn. I tried to find the exact data but haven't located it yet. I did find some interesting stuff. Here's my response:


Bucktail Willie, I spent 2 hours yesterday looking for that data to try to give support to what you said. Unfortunately, I couldn't find it either. http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/images/smilies/huh.gif

I checked the fecundity studies I've posted for people before, googled "Atlantic striped bass and fertility" "Chesapeake Bay striped bass size and fertility" and a few other variations. There's tons of data out there, but you have to sift through countless scientific studies in PDF format talking about striped bass sperm proteins, sperm retarding agents, egg development, desired enzymes VS the harmful enzymes, pollution and algae effects on egg reproduction, all written by scientists and PHD candidates. About as exciting as watching 2 elephants have sex. http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/images/smilies/nuts.gif

I'll try to find more specific info when I have more time. For anyone who got excited by those terms I described in the paragraph above http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/images/smilies/razz.gif feel free to do those searches using similar terms or variations. Anyone who wants to learn more can participate in this.

I did find lots of data going back to the 1920's in PDF format, so it's out there.

What people who do reseach and bring the resulting data back to internet sites as "proof" need to realize, is that in many cases modern research is more accurate.

That's why it's sometimes misleading when (without singling anyone out) a member or members here presents NOAA, ASMFC, NMFS data from 10 years ago about catch statistics, etc, to "prove" that striped bass is "sustainable". It's sustainable when you're catching less than are removed from the population every year. I've previously mentioned here and other sites how the concept of "MSY" Maximum Sustainable Yield, is a misleading number in Fisheries Management. Yet people accept this number and the assumptions drawn from it as Gospel.

"Well the scientists came up with it, so it must be true" http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/images/smilies/bowdown.gif http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/images/smilies/nuts.gif




Bottom line:
1.It may not be possible to get modern 2009 fecundity data. I think for fecundity and egg viability it's more acceptable to find and use data that was done in the 1980's when Willie remembers these studies being done.

2. I haven't met Bucktail Willie yet, but as soon as I read his posts I realized he's a fisherman who knows exactly what he's talking about. He's lived through the Moratorium. The perspective he has and shares with you guys is invaluable. It should be given greater weight than someone who just wants to vent their opinion, and just started fishing 10 or 15 years ago..

3. I'm lucky enough to know several good sources around the same age as Willie, and they have confirmed what he said above:
a. Study found bass between 28-38" produced the most and healthest eggs.
b. Very few males grow beyond 36" and die off a natural death.
c. A "Hard Slot" can work- A slot of 24-30" makes a lot of sense.

4. I've been involved in fishermen activist issues, fisherman access and Public Trust, and trying to educate people about fisheries management, so they have the incentive to learn for themselves. This stuff gets so confusing that most people turn off to it as their eyes glaze over. I recently came back from MA where they want to have a slot there. It's a big issue that both sides haven't yet been able to agree on.

5. Slots - everyone has their own idea of what slot would be best or most detrimental. We have to start basing these decisons on what guys like Willie are saying, and getting in line behind him. He knows. http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif
He and others have seen what worked and didn't work. Too buch bickering over small details.

6. Ideal slot size - would be the one that allows the most active year classes of bass to spawn. It would not target these breeders which are the most sexually prolific. This is why fecundity and fertility studies are important.

7. The biggest bass have the most eggs - Yes, but are they the most prolific breeders? I recently changed my views on this because I was willing to change my opinion as I learned new things. In my research, I found papers that talked about how sometimes a female will not dump all of her eggs in one season. She could only dump 1/3 this year, and 2/3 the next while still making more in the process.
That's why guys will sometimes catch female bass with seemingly full egg sacs after the spawn, and assume they haven't spawned yet.

This is part of the reason why exact scientific numbers are so hard to generate and have faith in, both for fecundity studies and fisheries management.

8. Informed fishermen need to be put back into the Fisheries managment process. Many out there may not know that fisheries management boards used to have "public members" on their boards. These were originally intended to be experienced fishermen. They would, with their considerable years of experience, balance out the results whenever science proved to be somehow inaccurate in its long range projections.
Fishermen have been gradually removed from these boards and replaced with political appointees who don't fish.
This is unacceptable and something more fishermen should be protesting. How can they represent our interests if we don't even have a voice on their committees? http://www.thebassbarn.com/forum/images/smilies/huh.gif

And if after reading this you're inclined to get involved and protest this injustice, try to focus on getting people like Bucktail Willie elected. You really do need a solid base of knowledge like he has to be able to effectively represent all fishermen.

[bababooey]

It's official-

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=5773

GALLOWAY TOWNSHIP - The New Jersey Marine Fisheries Council, in a split vote and after a heated debate, voted Thursday night to support a saltwater fishing license.

Council Chairman Gil Ewing, who pitched the license as a way to fund marine fisheries programs, said the annual license fee would likely be in the $15 to $25 range.

Council also supports lowering size limits for striped bass to 24 inches. Click here for that story. (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/article_c8a06b49-2b3c-5ed6-b1e7-859478c0976e.html)

[rip316]

So when do we start paying? I don't care anymore. No one is going to stop me from fishing. Bring on MARCH damnit. lol. I do care. just very frustrating.

[DarkSkies]

RIP, it's a safe bet to say that in 2011 we'll all be reaching a little deeper into our pockets.

[finchaser]

Surprise
They can do this in 1 meeting to collect money,so they get it before the feds do next year. If NJ has a license, we need not sign up for the registry again. They said they ran out of time to finish this in December under Corsine and passed it days after Christie took over.:moon:Amazing:burn:

But to save the bass which was discusssed in December at the same meeting, it will take 2 to 3 years, for new regulations even to be thought about:2flip:

[captnemo]

^^Isn't it amazing what our legislators can do with money or a financial deadline as the motivator?