Report: MA gamefish bill meeting [Archive]

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 03:36 PM

The room was packed beyond belief, SRO crowd. :scared: There were 4 bench areas that each seated approx 20 people, accounting for about 80. There were another 60-80 people ringing the perimeter, and stacked up on the sides.

[The pics are poor due to the bad indoor lighting. I took them without flash. ]
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In all, I estimated 130-160 spectators/participants in the 40x20' room. Of that amount, some were before the Assembly on other matters. It would be fair to say that around 100-120 people were there on the striped bass matter. I could be off a little on my estimates.

If you ran into such a concentration of bass in the outside world, ya might say they were "stacked like cordwood". :lookhappy:

They summarized the language of the bill HB796, An Act Relative to the Conservation of Atlantic Striped Bass. This was originally presented to the Assembly for the first time in Jan 2009.

The first part of the day's sessions consisted of the Representatives and Senators speaking about this Bill, either For or Against.

It became apparent from the very start that there were a lot of strong viewpoints on each side. There was definitely some hostile tension and bad feelings. To the credit of each side, both opposing groups managed to maintain a civil manner, and only had to be admonished by the Chairman once when things got a little loud. :thumbsup:

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 03:57 PM

The panel:
Rep William Strauss (chair)
Sen Anthony Petrucelli (co-chair)
Rep Carolyn C Dykema
Rep Timothy R Madden
Rep Ann Margaret Ferrante
Sen Bruce E Tarr

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Since I don't live in Mass, I tried to be as impartial as possible. Many know I have strong opinions and might wonder if thats possible. Notice I said "as impartial as possible". :lookhappy: I originally went there to speak out in support of the bill. After I heard the implications, I had some reservations.

Actually, I have some real questions about the testimony presented on both sides. It bugs me that so many only wanted to see their side of things, and refused to consider the position of the other side.

In the end, I realized that's what our representatives, fishing organizations, and lobbyists are for. It seems like dirty politics, but that's how things are run in this world. :kooky:

They listen to our opinions, and then decide among themselves behind closed doors. Our job as voters is to decide who best represents our interests, and then lobby that politician with letters, campaign donations, or donations to a group that can represent us en masse. Otherwise, gov't politely listens, but they are mostly listening to their Constituents.

Constituents as a bloc have the most power in getting politicians' attention because they are the key group that, when mad enough, can vote a politician IN, or OUT OF, office.

I'll be trying to present a fair and balanced paraphrasal of peoples' statements here. I hope my biases don't show through too much. I understand each politician has a self-preservation interest to represent the voters in their district. They're just doing the best to maintain job security, like everyone else.

I will try to point out which politicians seemed more favorable to recreational fishermen, without seeming to endorse a certain politician. You guys and girls in MA have to keep yourselves informed and make your own decisions.

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 04:11 PM

As mentioned, all these came from my notes, paraphrased as accurately as I could. With these and the Spectator summaries, if anyone at any time has any corrections that need to be made in spelling of names or accuracy of testimony, feel free to contact me and I'll be glad to edit.

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1. Rep Peaks: (Spearfishermen might be interested in this)
She first got up to support several spearfishermen in her district who are inconvenienced by the restrictions MA has placed on spearfishermen. They're going to Rhode Island to spearfish. They want the language changed so they don't have to do that. I think the bill was HB799.

Spectator supporters:

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Face Winston and the Mass Freedivers club got up to speak.
"Spearfishing is sensible, respectable, and has very little bycatch. It's allowed in other states, but not MA. Please consider allowing it here."

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 04:15 PM

2. Rep Karyn E Polito: (Representing Recs)

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She spoke in support of recreational fishermen in her district, saying that the bill would be a win for the Commonwealth. She stated that approx $90MM was brought into MA revenues each year by recreational fishing and related activities.

Here's a copy of her supporting argument letter below.

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DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 04:18 PM

3. Rep Clive Turner: (Representing Comms)
" Bass fishing is the backbone of commerce in my district. Many of my constituents will be negatively impacted if you pass this bill. I do not support it."

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 04:43 PM

4. Senator O'Leary: (Representing Comms)

"I'm against this bill. There is too much legislation regarding striped bass as it is. I realize there are some concerns, some competing perspectives.

We're not at a point where we need to intervene - leave it up to the NMFS.

Why target the commercial people as the focus of this problem? The problem may be bigger than this, and it isn't fair to put the blame squarely on their shoulders."

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 04:52 PM

5. Representative Peaks: (Representing Comms)

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Note: Representative Peaks is the MA state representative to the ASMFC

"This bill will serve no meaningful conservation purpose. This will put a negative impact on tourism.

The bill falls more reasonably under the ASMFC auspices.

If it's about the science - I can tell you the striped bass stock has been successfully rebuilt according to the statistics. Striped bass recovery is the biggest fish recovery success story ever, and there is no danger at all now.

As for Mortality -- 81% of the fishing mortality is attributable to the Recs, only 19% to the Comms. The segment of the industry that is killing the most bass is the Recreational fishermen.

Commercial fishermen are facing tough times. These people will be put out of business if this bill is passed. There will be a large ripple effect in the local seaside economies.

Negative impact on tourism - Restaurant owners in my district claim that people "plan thier vacations around coming to the Cape to eat wild striped bass. They will not come to our state to vacation any more if they can't eat their wild striped bass."

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 05:08 PM

6. Representative Matthew Patrick: (Representing Recs) from Bourne, Mashpee, Barnstable

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"The overall biomass is not down, but breeding females are down as a % of this total number.

We have seen a decline in breeding females. Females are always the biggest fish when you are talking about bass larger than 30". That is why it's necessary to protect them.

During the Moratorium put in place by the lower states, the Chesapeake Bay stocks had crashed because large females were aggressively targeted by anglers.

I am a fisherman, and have some experience fishing for striped bass.

Striped bass represent a billion dollars yearly of revenue in MA, if you look at all the aggregate economic activity generated by Recreational anglers here and elsewhere coming to fish for them.

Commercial fishing represents about $24 million of yearly revenue based on the aggregate effect.

The business of fishing and its related industries is either the largest or 2nd largest revenue stream in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

This bill represents a "starting point" Don't leave it up to the DMF. They were the ones in charge many years ago when the stocks collapsed.

We cannot sustain a collapse of this magnitude again.

Some studies and results have shown - (documents available for the committee's review)
a. Consistently taking large fish changes the gene pool. Bigger fish are genetically superior, and there is some concern that eliminating them or reducing their numbers encourages less genetically fit fish to become a bigger part of the biomass.

b. 3000 Commercial permits were taken out in 2008, at a fee of $65. Of those 3000, only 1207 permit holders reported catching any fish. It is my understanding that they do this to ensure a consistent portion of quota is given to commercial fishermen.

c. Advisory warnings - several states now have advisory warnings against women and children eating too many striped bass because the larger ones have higher PCB concentrations.

I am not a man who wants to put these commercial fishermen out of work. I don't want to see their livelihood taken away. If there was a way to restrict fishing in some way by contacting the DMF and restricting commercial fishermen from harvesting big females and still allowing them to fish, I would be all for it.

I would also bring your attention to the Southwick study publicized by StripersForever. The goal of all of us should be to look at the breeding females and figure out how to protect them.

Here are my recommendations in addition to supporting this bill:
1. Figure out a way to save the spawning females.
2. Find a way to buy out commercial fishermen so they are not financially impacted if we pass this gamefish bill.
3. I would like to see a slot fish limit of 20-26", and the number of keeper bass reduced from 2 to 1. "

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 05:53 PM

7. Senator Bruce E Tarr (Representing Comms)

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"I am completely against this bill. With my dying breath I will not support anything that takes away from the livelihood of commercial fishermen."

Sidebar:
[ Senator Tarr has a working relationship with Senator Patrick]

For anyone who was not happy with the results of the hearing, you would be well advised to proceed according to the above info. Encourage these 2 legislators to work together on some kind of a reasonable compromise.

IMO if any of the lawmakers have the incentive and inclination to make anything happen, it will not happen without the support and agreement of these 2 gentlemen. :thumbsup:

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 06:18 PM

8. Representative D'Amico: (Representing the Recs)

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"I support this bill. The state of Texas had redfish declared a gamefish. Therefore, this action in Massachusetts is not unprecedented. It brought substantially more tourist dollars into the state after they did this.

Value comparisons:
The dollar value of striped bass to this state from recreational fishing is 48x the amount we receive from Commercial fishing. That is a significant difference, and a value we would continue to receive and possibly have increased as a result of passing this bill."

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Sidebar: Article mentioning the passage of the redfish gamefish bill in Texas, and the subsequent results:

http://www.lsonews.com/20071023218/President-George-W.-Bush-signs-an-Executive-Order-to-protect-striped-bass-and-red-drum.html

President George W. Bush signs an Executive Order to protect striped bass and red drum

Written by Mark England Tuesday, 23 October 2007

President George W. Bush signs an Executive Order to protect the striped bass and red drum fish populations Saturday, Oct. 20, 2007, at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum in St. Michaels, Md. President Bush is joined during the signing by, from left, Michael Nussman, president of American Sportfishing Association; Brad Burns, president of Stripers Forever; David Pfeifer, president of Shimano America Corp.; Walter Fondren, chairman of Coastal Conservation Association; U.S. Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez; U.S. Rep. Wayne Gilchrest of Maryland and U.S. Secretary of Interior Dirk Kempthorne. White House photo by Eric Draper

Recreational anglers came up big Saturday when President George W. Bush signed an order banning the commercial harvesting of redfish and striped bass in federal waters.

While both species were already protected, a spokesman for the American Sportfishing Association said the order is more than window dressing. Gordon Robertson noted federal regulations as written were subject to change.

"With this order, they can never be changed," he said.

Robertson added, "It will be a huge benefit to the sportsman and the resource."

The Oct. 20th order doesn't prohibit the commercial sale of redfish and stripers produced by aquaculture. However, harvesters can't touch either species within the "Exclusive Economic Zone of the United States," or 200 miles beyond state waters.

In a radio address, Bush said he acted to "preserve our fisheries." "These two species were once abundant in American waters, but their stocks were overfished," Bush said.

Officials for the Coastal Conservation Association and Stripers Forever – both of which campaigned arduously for the – praised the conservation order.

"When CCA began to work on recovering red drum 30 years ago in Texas, we never imagined an event like this would ever be possible," said Chairman Walter W. Fondren III. "We owe a debt of gratitude to the president for recognizing the high value placed on these resources by the citizens of this country."

SF President Bradford Burns said the order represents Bush's realization that the game fish designation will lead to the best use of the two species.

"Socioeconomic studies show that the industry this fishery represents is many more times valuable than that represented by harvesting these same fish commercially," Burns said.

A Texas Parks and Wildlife official agreed.

“Recreational fishing is a $2 billion industry in Texas, while commercial fishing is a $100-200 million industry," said Larry McKinney, director of the Coastal Fisheries Division. "We’ve been stressing that for years.”

President George W. Bush is shown a fish caught by Melissa Fischer, left, by her husband, Chris Fischer, aboard a fishing boat Saturday, Oct. 20, 2007 off the coast of St. Michaels, Md., in the Chesapeake Bay, during a television interview with the Fischers, hosts of ESPN¹s Offshore Adventures. President Bush talked about his love of the outdoors and the Executive Order signed earlier in the day to protect striped bass and red drum fish species. White House photo by Eric Draper

News of Bush's order thrilled a Texas guide who specializes in fishing for redfish.

"It will really help us," said James Fox, who runs a guide service in Rockport. "It will stop all the commercial fishing for redfish."

Fox called the order "absolute protection" for redfish. McKinney noted that federal waters are where redfish are most at risk.

"That's where they reproduce and where they are always vulnerable," he said.

Redfish were declared a game fish in Texas waters in 1981.

"Following that, our stocks went up 100 percent," McKinney said.

In 1987, the commercial harvest of redfish was also banned in federal waters. The impact of the ban was dramatic. The commercial harvest of redfish dropped from 14 million pounds in 1986 to 22,000 pounds in 2006. Meanwhile, the recreational catch of redfish jumped from 3.5 million in 1986 to 9.8 million in 2006.

As far as striped bass, they're a scarce resource off the Texas coast -- given the dams found along most rivers that drain into the Gulf, although some have been caught in the Sabine Lake area in recent years.

Commercial harvesters reacted angrily to the order.

Bob Jones, executive director of Southeast Fisheries (a commercial fishing trade group based in Tallahassee, Fla.), noted the order came as the Gulf of Mexico Fisheries Management Council was trying to determine if the redfish stock could support a limited commercial harvest.

Jones called Bush's order an unprecedented resource grab.

"He gave all of the fish to the CCA," Jones told the Mobile Press-Register. "What he is doing is totally opposite from the process that has been in place with Magnuson-Stevens since 1976."

TPW's McKinney said the order came at an opportune time as pressure was building to open up redfish and striped bass to commercial harvesting.

"From our perspective, we hope this will keep that to a minimum," he said. "From an economic standpoint, you can't justify it. They're both far more valuable as a recreational resource than as a commercial resource."

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 06:42 PM

They then opened the floor to any groups or individuals who wanted to speak, and had pre-registered.

I'm getting tired of the typing. I'll use the following abbreviations:

sb = striped bass
cf = commercial fishing
rf = recreational fishing
sf = stripers forever
mv = Martha's vineyard
cc = Cape Cod
ccchfa = Cape Cod commercial hook fisherman's assoc

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 06:58 PM

SF was one of the sponsors of the bill. They had a few people up at the table:

1. Craig Coldwell:

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"Striped bass financed the first schools in MA. They were the first fish ever to be managed by the states. SB are the most important recreational fish in terms of dollar activity.
Fishing is the #1 past-time in the US, according to dollars spent.
MA has a history of being a leader in conservation.
Of our neighbors, 6 of 13 do not allow the commercial sale of sb."

2. A marine biologist, and another person (I didn't get the names)

3. **** Russell - author of the Striper Wars...

Mr Russell is to the Left in this pic
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a book chronicling the history of striper fishing in the US, the amazing abundance, the devastating decline, and the remarkable comeback story.
" In terms of the number of breeding females, we are at the same declining levels we were at before the striped bass crash in the late 1970s which resulted in the striped bass Moratorium in 1982."

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The presentation was extremely professional, with great charts and graphs. Maybe it was too professional. :don't know why:

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The commercial fishermen, as if on cue, referred to them as a "special interest group". :huh:

SF spoke about the decline of the striped bass fishery as noted by many respected charter captains, fishing guides, and fishermen who are outdoor writers. Some people who have a lot of credibility have been saying that the size of striped bass overall has been declining since 2004.

They mentioned the Southwick study, the fact that YOY studies in the Chesapeake, and several respected sources in the Striper fishing world seem to agree that there has been a decline in the number of larger (female) bass in the last few years.

They tried to give qualitative and quantitative evidence for the decline of the fishery.

Here's a link to their site:

Striped bass - Why a gamefish?
http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/gamefish

Some interesting research:
http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/Stripers_Research/

Ted Williams - Striped bass headed for a crash? FRR July 2009
http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/Stripers_Research/I011EB905.0/Ted%20Williams%20FRR%20piece%20on%20SB%20July%2020 09.pdf

Poaching by commercial fishermen in MA:
http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/Stripers_Research/I00911E44.0/Seize.pdf

Al Ristori talks about the affect of gamefish status in NJ:
http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/Stripers_Research/I005F8833.0/Ristori%20rebuttal.pdf

finchaser

01-15-2010, 07:39 PM

All in favor of DS quitting his daytime job and becoming a RF lobbyist:D:clapping:

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 08:21 PM

What does RF stand for ya grouchy bassturd? :2flip: :HappyWave:

I'm tired of all this typing. I know progress wasn't made yesterday. I should just give it up already, right? ;)

As for the SF proposal, it's not a good idea to mount a program in a recession that will allegedly take jobs away from people. :kooky: At least awareness was raised.

All the crabbing you do every day when ya talk to me has turned me into grouchy old bassturd II. :laugh:

I try to be objective. However, I know you and many other people in the shadows who don't want to get involved any more. Every day I get to hear real stories about a declining fishery.

If you only fish in one state, and don't pay attention to what happens N or S of you, you might not be able to see the big picture. If you have a boat to get in the middle of the biggest bass, you would swear that the fishery is perfectly fine. :don't know why:

When Bob Pond first started talking about conservation and founded Stripers Unlimited, people made fun of him. They ridiculed him behind his back, and thought he was delusional as well.

They called him "Chicken little". :kooky:

Eventually, they began to understand some of the things he was talking about on their own. Today, most people realize that Bob Pond was way ahead of his time and could see things that others couldn't.

Don't be ready to lump me in as a Rec Fishing lobbyist just yet. I have some serious issues with the recreational industry, the NJ bonus tags, and how we as recreationals report our catches, and the ego and greed I have witnessed first hand on the part of many recreational guys.

Those things have to somehow be addressed if the striped bass fishery will continue to exist as a sustainable one.

As it is now, I maintain it isn't sustainable, and the landings, as most recently reported, will continue to decline. The latest stats for this were revealed at the hearing, and both sides made mention of it.

If it's not addressed by addressing the hidden issues, and the increased pressure placed on bass by all the other closures, the landings could continue to decline. I stand by that statement.

Don't take my word for it, I'm just a goog with a white bucket! :laugh:

That's why I take such time to record and document stories by you, Finchaser the Old Grouchy Bassturd, :HappyWave: Gunny/aka Stripercoast1, LilcoJoe from Montauk, Surfwalker, Clamchucker, etc, etc, and the many old-timers I have been fortunate to meet, who ask me to continue to speak out, because they're tired of preaching when no one seems to be listening.

And I'll continue to speak out, as long as I have you to fire me up with your rants and raves. ;)

finchaser

01-15-2010, 08:57 PM

sb = striped bass
cf = commercial fishing
rf = recreational fishing
sf = striper's forever
mv = Martha's vineyard
cc = Cape Cod
ccchfa = Cape Cod commercial hook fisherman's assoc

RF is from your codes.

And by the way if we do away with bonus tags the bass allotted to that program will be given to the general commercial quota.

NJ as a game fish state got the bonus program which started as a trophy tag for a fish over 40" when there really weren't many. Then some how they let the head boats tag cover everyone on board( peace offering for reduced season and bag limits on other fish).
Mass would have to adopt a similar program or loose there fish, the managers can't just let them live as part of conservation:don't know why:.

Next fish grew through the years and bunker supplies increased and now everything is out of control. Many people in charge of fisheries managment are appointed and have no marine biology training but plenty of time on their hands to institute these lame programs.

You have much to learn grasshopper,but it is all part of your lobbyist training:thumbsup::HappyWave::HappyWave: so you can educate them.

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 09:05 PM

**** Russel wrote the book Striper Wars. I think it was published in 2005, chronicling the timeline.

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One of the chapters in there is dedicated to Bob Pond. :thumbsup: A little about his book:

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[Mr. Pond, a resident of Attleboro and North Attleboro, was an avid fisherman who revolutionized striped bass fishing in the 1940s after discovering a method for catching the fish on the surface. He turned his knowledge into a business manufacturing multi-hooked swimming lures that the game fish found irresistible.
His Attleboro-based Atom Manufacturing cranked out wooden and plastic lures beginning in 1945 and continuing after he sold the business in 1998.
Mr. Pond was also a visionary in conservation, pointing out the threat to the fish from coastal fish traps and diseases.
Founder of the conservation group Stripers Unlimited, Pond's work, alongside that of the late Rhode Island Sen. John Chafee, is widely credited with helping save striped bass from extinction along the East Coast.
Mr. Pond persisted in his efforts despite being scoffed at by many sportsmen and scientists. Today, bass fishing constitutes a $1 billion a year business, said New York writer Frank Pintauro, who noted that Pond's vision helped open America's coastlines to a new, populist sport.
"At the end of World War II, when America's beaches were becoming a playground for everyman, rather than just the wealthy, Bob was a pioneer lure maker for what some have called the golden age of surf-casting," he said. "He was an extraordinary guy."
So influential was Mr. Pond's role in molding the sport, that some of his original lures have fetched up to $750 apiece from collectors.
But Mr. Pond's efforts in awakening the need for conservation is perhaps his most important legacy.
"Bob Pond was way out ahead of all the experts in sounding the alarm in the 1960s about dangers facing the striped bass, and without his tireless efforts on this magnificent fish's behalf, we wouldn't be out there catching them today," said **** Russell, environmental journalist and author of "Striper Wars: An American Fish Story. "He was a pioneer in ocean conservation, long before the impacts of overfishing and coastal pollution became topics of widespread concern." Russell's book contains a chapter about Pond's work. ]

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I didn't get a chance to personally meet Mr Russell or any of the other sf guys.

However, I did read up on some of his articles. I thought they made sense. I also looked for a hidden agenda. I went to his web site and looked for any PETA or PEW Trust affiliations. I can tell you that if I found any of those, I wouldn't be talking about him here.

I did read that he was an "environmentalist". :huh:

I don't like that term, and don't consciously associate with anyone who's described like that. I feel I have nothing in common with tree huggers.

Even though I care deeply about striped bass, I would never want to be labeled an environmentalist. The word has too many elite connotations for me. :laugh:

Anyone who can share anything else about Mr Russell, positive or negative, please let me know.

Here's a link to his site. It talks about how he was involved in striped bass conservation in the 1980's when the stocks collapsed. If he still has the same passion for striped bass 25 years after the stocks collapsed and were brought back, I have to give him some credit:

His testimony and statement:
http://www.dickrussell.org/index.htm

Saving stripers will require tighter net of regulations 2-6-09
http://www.dickrussell.org/articles/savingstripers.htm

Striped bass in trouble again? 12-13-08
http://www.dickrussell.org/articles/trouble.htm

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 09:27 PM

And by the way if we do away with bonus tags the bass allotted to that program will be given to the general commercial quota.

You and I are gonna have to disagree on this one Fin. I know what you're saying is the truth. I researched it, and learned things can't always be looked at in black and white.
However, the loose regulation of this NJ bonus tag program is a serious issue. I know most fishermen out there are honest and want to respect the regs. Possessing that tag gives the dishonest ones a chance to cheat, and get away with it very easily.

They only risk getting caught on the small chance they are stopped by a DFG officer. Otherwise, possessing the tag gives the dishonest ones carte blanche to take 3 keepers every time they go out until they're stopped.

If we want to complain about the poaching and reg violating the cf are doing, we need to look at ourselves and make sure our own hands aren't bloody. http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/icons/icon3.gif

So IMO even though we would give up that allocation to another coastal state, so be it. I don't think we will ever, or should try to, eliminate all forms of commercial fishing in every state.

However we must do a better job of regulating the areas in BOTH cf and rf that are easily abused. If not we'll never get a true handle on the actual striper landings. :learn:

Many people in charge of fisheries managment are appointed and have no marine biology training but plenty of time on their hands to institute these lame programs.

You have much to learn grasshopper,but it is all part of your lobbyist training:thumbsup::HappyWave::HappyWave: so you can educate them.

I get a :thumbsup: and 2 :HappyWave::HappyWave:s from you? That is the ultimate compliment, I'm honored! :lookhappy:

The great lie in fisheries management is that they represent the fishermen fairly. :rolleyes: How could they, if they've removed many of the fishermen committee members, one by one? :huh:

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 09:52 PM

CCCHFA:

(In this pic the CCCHFA are seated on the bench behind the table. You can see them to the extreme right. The pics are terrible, sorry)

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The ccchfa and Exec Director Sue Nickerson got to the table and explained their opposition, basically job loss and financial hardship.

I thought they did a decent job of explaining their issues. Some of them I may not agree with, but I agreed with the way they presented them. It was hard for the legislators not to pay attention with person after person on the Comm side willing to testify, AND stacks of letters and e-mails presented to them.

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Most of the rest of the comments are from Comms. They far outnumbered the Recs. I estimated approx 80 Comms showed up.

The Recs, inclluding the SF group, numbered around 30-40 at most.

I had heard that sf was supposed to have 55 of its own members there. Additionally, I hoped there would be others to balance things out. It was kind of sad to see so many people talk about this stuff on internet sites. Then when it's time for them to show up, very few do.

If you ever think you want to oppose the Comms, you must realize that they will turn out in full force. They will go to meetings and voice their opinions. I realize a lot of people had to work that day, things happen. :don't know why: My impression was that it was a poor turnout for the Recs, considering how many there are out there.

DarkSkies

01-15-2010, 10:38 PM

There were so many I can't post them all or my fingers will fall off. ;)

I'm just gonna post the ones that seemed to offer a different perpective. These are all paraphrased as I heard them:

1. Willie Hatch, cf, Falmouth
"The ASMFC 11-19-09 report says the resource is in good condition. Female sb are at 148% and 180% over target. If there is an availibility problem, maybe it is the fault of the seals, less bait, or more pollution.
Since 2004 there has been a slight decline in my catches. To blame cf is unjust.
sf is a special interest group that wants the fish all to themselves. The stock is not overfished, it is sustainable. "

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2. Dean Carton, rf,

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"I used to be a cf, now my thinking has changed. sb should be protected from commercial exploitation like other animals, like the deer and waterfowl are."
Mr Carton presented letters from -

a. Arthur Brownell, a Commissioner of Mass F&G from 1968-76. Mr Brownell said the rec value of striped bass far exceeded the comm value. The tourists will no longer come to MA if the bass stocks collapse.

b. Ted Williams - Ted Williams has a well-known article, reviewed here, Striper Signals, beginning with post #20:
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=760&page=2

c. Capt Jimmy Elliot

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3. Richard _____, cf,
former member of MA legislature, now a cf:
"I have been cf since I left the legislature. This bill takes away from the ability of cf to earn a living. Commercial mortality is very low and should be regulated by the DMF. If any further regulation is needed, you should go to the DMF and demand stricter regs."

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4. David Halbinson, rf, and charter captain, Halston, MA, speaking in support of the bill
"60 yrs fishing... there has been a precipitous drop in rf catches since 2006 according to NOAA and NMFS.
DMF striped bass permit breakdown:
What is the distribution of those who sell fish?
a. Only 453 reported they actually sold fish. That means approx 9% of permit holders sold 73% of all fish.
b. The total income brought into MA by all cf license holders is approx $3.4mm before taxes. This translates to approx $2800/yr. Assuming costs of doing business, I find it hard to believe these guys who are cf are making around $2800/year or substantially less on selling bass.

Are these figures and reported income accurate? Someone needs to look at this. "

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5. Dennis Gebrallis, cf, Hyannis -
"No one makes 100% of their income striped bass fishing. Leave us alone, we are only a small part of the catch."

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6. Peter Budryk, rf, free lance Author - fishing 50 yrs

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I am "for" the gamefish bill. Most commercial fishermen are honest, I agree with that statement.

However, the commercial permit system is being abused, and it is time the gov't or some governing body looks into it.
Remember the demise of the buffalo? At one time they were all over the land. Bluefin tuna now have a similar situation. Market fishing for these bluefin is extremely lucrative. The sizes are geting smaller and smaller every year. The same thing is happening to our striped bass. It's time to stand up and do something about it.
I'm a writer on Cape Cod, and have been writing for 60 years. I have seen that there are individuals on both sides who are abusing this system, BOTH commercial and recreational.
Therefore, it can be said that BOTH groups are stealing this shared resource form the American public."

**************************************
7. John Creed, cf, Sandwich Mass
"I've been fishing since I was 10 years old. Why are you worried about the catches of 23 people?
The fish are all offshore now where the food is.
I don't know where they spawn and I don't care. I only know all the fish are offshore and out of reach of most people. That is why they are saying there is less of them. '

*********************************************
8. Martha's Vineyard Striped Bass Association - cf

9323
"We need sb as part of our diversified fishery. We fish for TAC - total allowable catch, and will soon be participating in catch shares developed by Dr Lubchenko."

********************************************
9. Menemsha fishing assoc - cf

9324
"We don't know where you are getting your low figures from. We all caught over 6000lbs each last year."

****************************************
10. Stan Barry - cf - Boston fish wholesaler

9325
"I have customers around the world who plan their season around buying and eating striped bass. They will not eat farmed striped bass and prefer wild striped bass. If I cannot provide it to them, I will lose these customers."

finchaser

01-16-2010, 08:44 AM

I'm against the tag ,there is a quota assigned to it and once met that should be it for the year but no one monitors it.:burn:under the new method

Under the old method you had cards that had to be filled out and mailed in, and you were sent another but after so many cards were issued in general it stooped. Using the INTERNET to do it is total bull ****. IMO the INTERNET will aid in destroying bass fishing even faster this time around.

VSdreams

01-16-2010, 12:04 PM

Time well spent Dark, it must have taken you hours to collect your thoughts and get them down on paper. It is much appreciated. Nice reporting. Thanks.:thumbsup:

DarkSkies

01-16-2010, 06:20 PM

VSDreams, I honestly spend way too much time on these issues. What pushes me is there are many out there who don't know any of this stuff, because it's never been presented to them before.

I want to give it my best effort. My energies are fueled by the countless phone calls and PMs I get thanking me for trying. :HappyWave:

Many of those contacting me are old-timers, who have seen this happen once, and see the potential of it happening again. Quite a few of them are tired of fighting. A general consensus among a lot of old timers I know and a lot of other fishermen is that we might as well ignore this. They feel another moratorium is inevitable given all the fighting we recreational fishermen do. They feel things will get shut down anyway, what's the use of trying?

Sometimes I wonder if in the grand scheme of things if it's worth it? Why fight a growing trend of anglers who don't want to believe it unless they see it before their very eyes? :don't know why:

My answer:
It's the phone calls and PMs. I thank you guys for that. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thanks to all who keep pushing me, even the grouchy ones. :laugh: :HappyWave:

seamonkey

01-16-2010, 07:14 PM

Nice report Dark, Thanks for the update.

DarkSkies

01-16-2010, 08:20 PM

11. Tim Silva, cf
"50% of my income comes from bass fishing. This bill is selfish."

******************************
12. Thomas Short, cf
"This is a sustainable fishery"

********************************
13. Darren Saletta, cf Chatham

9326
"I have a marine sciences degree from Cornell. We don't hi-grade our fish. We are accused of not contributing to the fishing culture. Many families come to the docks to see us come in. It's true there are many inactive permits, but people maintain these permits to keep their options open. "

**************************
14. Allen Forrest, rf, Cape Cod, fishing for 50 years

9327
I was once a cf, am now solely a rf. I believe we need to protect these fish. We all deserve better fishing than what we're having now. The preservation of this species has been maligned, like it only benefits a special interest group. I say that statement is false. The making of the striper a gamefish will ultimately benefit us all, and because the numbers are down, now is the time to do it."

****************************
15. Russell Cleary, cf, representing the Commercial Anglers Assoc. (CAA)
"Striped bass are not overfished. This bill would place an undue burden on many families. I was on the MFC advisory committee at one time."

****************************
16. George Watson, rf
I have many years of fishing experience. I grew up fishing with John Tolten. I have issues with several claims put forth with commercial fishermen:
a. No one will eat farm raised striped bass and people will lose restaurant customers if they try to serve it.
This is an untrue statement. If you look at the value of farm raised vs wild striped bass in the fish markets, wild striped bass sells for only 10c more/lb than farm raised. What does that tell you about market forces? People are already eating farm raised striped bass and paying for the privelege with no complaints. Market forces have dictated that farm raised is comparable to wild bass, at least from an economics standpoint.

b. All striped bass are healthy as sold.
This is another fallacy. The larger striped bass have higher concentrations of PCBs. This has been scientifically proven. There is also a high % of mycobacteriosis in bass who spawn in the Chesapeake bay. They are having serious problems with that now.

c. The striped bass fishery is sustainable.
This is another fallacy. In the 1800s there were 100lb striped bass. The average size has been decreasing since then. I don't expect people to have 100lb bass as a standard now. After all, that was over 150 years ago. However, this continuous harvesting of the bigger bass has had a negative effect on average striped bass size. I maintain it is decreasing, and will continue until we do something about it.

****************************
17. Dave Tripp, cf & charter captain
"The slot limit is bad because it doesn't allow bass to spawn"

***************************
18. Jose______, cf
"rf has more mortality than cf"

*********************
19. Hunter Mark (14 years old) and David Mark (uncle), cf, Chatham
"This bill will restrict us and not allow us to make a living"

********************************
20. ______________ , rf
(I didn't get this guy's name. Anyone who recognizes his testimony here, plse let me know and I'll edit it in later)
'I was a cf for many years, and now just fish rf.
I may be one of the few in this room who is a regular ASMFC attendee.
Some of you have criticized the Southwick Study put up by sf. I remind you that -
'Results of this survey should not be used to make decisions for research allocations or mandates.'

Although I feel something needs to be done, I DON'T support the slot limit. Bad science is bad science. I firmly believe that a 20-26" slot is bad. May I remind you that Maine went to a slot limit in 1997. By 1999, 2 years later, reported catches had risen 1000%.

I will read a letter from Dr Michael Armstrong, retired head of the RF program for the state of MA:
'....the slot limit does not work...the economics for that size don't work.'

I can report that the latest ASMFC meeting, there was an updated stock assessment. This assessent says that the overall biomass is trending down. There will ultimately be some sanctions recommended by the ASMFC to restrict striped bass catches somewhat.

That's how this matter should be handled, on the ASMFC level.

**************************
21. Brian Curry, cf, fishing 50 years

9328
"This bill unfairly targets cf, while rf kill many more bass than cf. I don't see where the science behind it is accurate. On the Cape, we have had differences in bait migration. We also have an abundance of seals and cormorants whose population is unchecked and growing. I don't feel it's fair to place the whole blame squarely on the shoulders of cf. '

DarkSkies

01-16-2010, 08:35 PM

22. Arthur C, rec fisherman, Cape Cod

"I am 75 years old. I have been fishing since I was 12, for a total of 63 years.

9329
I am here not merely to support the bill, but to voice my concerns about both sides of the issue. I would like to make the following points:

1. If striped bass numbers go down again like they were in the 1980's, they will have a very difficult period of recovery. This could economically impact tourism as fishermen will not travel here to fish.
2. I do support a slot limit as I feel it would keep bigger fish in the gene pool.
3. I want my grandchildren to be able to continue to catch bass, and am here also as a voice for their future.
4. The current law as it is written is faulty. I am catching too many big fish in the estuaries. Even though I am a catch and release fisherman, I think we should limit our take of big fish. "

*********************************
As they were leaving the meeting Arthur proposed to his fiance Rosalie M. This was the highlight of the day. :lookhappy: :clapping::clapping:

After a year-long whirlwind courtship, she gladly accepted. This must have been a relief for Arthur. What if she had said no? :don't know why:

I was so impressed I left the room with Arthur and Rosalie, and took some pictures outside the Assembly.

9330

9331

9332

9333

Arthur is one of the most avid fly fishermen on the Cape. He holds a PHD from Cornell, and has caught striped bass from St John's River in NB Canada to the St John's River in Jacksonville, Fla. His major base for fishing has been Cape Cod. He is strictly a catch and release fisherman and crafts all of the flies he uses.

It was my pleasure to meet Arthur and his fiance Rosalie. I wish them much happiness and health in their years together! :clapping::clapping: :thumbsup::thumbsup: :HappyWave:

DarkSkies

01-16-2010, 09:52 PM

I tried to be as fair and impartial as I could here. Those who know me know I have a problem with people who feel the law is written for others to follow, and not them.

I realize the majority of commercial fishermen, and recreationals, are honest and want to follow the laws.

However, I know of both recs and comms who have very creative ways of disregarding the laws and getting away with it. This becomes a bigger problem where you have an activity like fishing, where it's very difficult to have universal compliance.

There aren't enough officers in the field. People who disregard the law regularly know they have a slim chance of getting caught for fishing violations. The fines are so small that it's almost worth it to cheat for the dishonest ones. They view it as the cost of doing business. :don't know why:

These are some of the questions that arose for the state of MA, based on the responses from both sides:

1. Negative tourism impact from closing down commercial fishing.
I think this is a poor argument, and simply can't be supported by the numbers. Look at any of the other states that have shut comm fishing down. I don't believe any of them have been economically harmed by it, in terms of aggregate dollars coming into the state from fishing.

2. People have to eat wild striped bass or they won't come to MA.
I don't think that argument holds water. Mass is a beautiful state, and a preferred destination for many families. There might be some unhappy people. I would bet that it wouldn't change net tourism dollar inflow or tourism traffic into the state if this were changed.

3. The striped bass stock is sustainable.
I heard that phrase so many times by Comms my head was spinning. :kooky:

IMO the problem with the concept of sustainability is that they use MSY as a benchmark. Simplified, that means that they are managing the resource for the "hypothesized" maximum yield that won't cause the biomass numbers to go down.

Fisheries terms explained here:
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=5533

This is faulty science, people. It's attributable to the management practices of the NMFS, ASMFC, and NOAA. The way to realistically manage the biomass for future growth is complex. It would require a series of newer calculations, such as predicted entrants into the fishing world, growth of that unknown number, and the variance and standard deviation of that growth rate.
It becomes complicated when you consider all the other variables that can affect fishing results, such as weather, bait migration, etc, etc. So it's not clear how these variables are factored into the equation.

Fisheries management is also a fallacy if you don't look at the global biomasses of inter-dependent species when making these decisions.

Simply repeating a mantra that:
The numbers are screwed up because they don't take into account a,b,c, d, e, and f...gets us nowhere.

I don't have the answers for that. I wanted to make note of it for the historical record.

4. The big bass are all offshore because that's where the bait is:
I hear this so many times from people it causes my head to spin as well. :rolleyes:

If that were empirically true, then every time you had large schools of bait, you would consistently find good numbers of large bass underneath. Although other bait will be targeted, bunker are the preferred food source for the biggest bass because they're the easiest meal.

Big bass are lazy, ask author H Bruce Franklin. The charter boat guys and professional fishermen know this as well, and that's why they'll get their biggest bass near high bait concentrations.

Also, this statement that the bass are where the bait is in MA, should be always true for large concentrations in any state, if the biomass and numbers of large bass are statistically accurate. That simply was not true last year for NJ. At times, with water temps being optimal, there were miles of bunker schools off the coast of NJ, with only a few big bass under them.

That to me indicates a problem. There will always be a Captain who claims they found bass anyway.
This goes to the M&M theory, where of course the biggest bass will always be found in the middle of the highest bait concentrations. The important indicator of a stock's health is the edges of the bowl, representing its geographic range, and not just a few hot spots in the middle.

M&M theory explained here:
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...p?t=760&page=5 (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=760&page=5)
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...p?t=760&page=7 (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=760&page=7)

DarkSkies

01-16-2010, 10:28 PM

Based on the testimony I heard from both sides, here are some of the key issues that need to be addressed:

1. Recs kill more bass.
This is a true statement. I agree with it. It's supported by all historical data we have for the past few years. Basically, the commercial harvest has stayed the same (allegedly as reported)

The rec harvest has continued to climb, not only for bass but some other species we fish for recreationally, with the exception of weakfish. Before I explained to you how the data collection is not optimally accurate. Now I'm telling you the numbers are correct.
What gives? :huh:
Simple answer..they are relatively correct.
Even if you were to assume that every single comm out there is dishonest and is mis-stating their catch, the sheer number of rec fishermen and catches is such that Recs logically catch more than Comms do in the case of MA.

For the record, I will state that MA's Comm method of fishing with heavy tackle is one of the most efficient ways of harvesting fish without a high mortality. I think we should believe that the Comm mortality numbers are accurate. To be honest, I'm not so sure about the Rec mortality numbers. I think they could be higher than represented. The figure they use is less than 10%. Some people with more experience than me claim the mortality is at least 10% for Recs.

So, it is what it is, and we need to accept the fact that recs kill more bass in this case.

2. Is it in the best interests of MA to prevent every Comm fisherman from fishing for striped bass?
This issue became confusing the more I heard the testimony from the Comm guys. In the previous post I slammed some of the things the Comm guys do. I also stated that there are abuses on the Rec side as well.
I think the real answer here to a workable solution lies somewhere in the middle:

a. They could immediately put a cap on all new commercial licenses, none permitted for the future.

b. Let guys know that the weekend warrior comm guys would be weeded out from the system. If you can't prove you fish commercially for a living, it might be a good idea to look into why that group has to be gven the privelege of a commercial permit. The commercial permit gives you the right to harvest and carry 30 fish/day. I respectfully submit that if there is abuse of this permit, it's more llikely to be by a guy who doesn't do it for a living. Of course, that's just my opinion.

I know of a few NJ guys who make the run to MA every year to fish commercially. Private intel came in that said some of them were finding ways to take more than their limits. I think it's important for abuses like that to be stopped. As some of those testifying said, when people do that they're stealing from all people in MA. I've also heard of instances of commercial guys living in MA who have sold to restaurants & small independent fish markets where they don't have to report it on their license. This underground industry needs to be looked at.

c. Again, that method of hook and line fishing is more efficient than purse seining and gill-netting for bass, where the dead bycatch numbers are horrible. Even though I've never been a big fan of commercial fishing, I think some of the fault with the fishery lies squarely on the shoulders of the recs. You need to find a way to address that as well.

d. Lawsuits - when we talk about these things in the abstract, it's important to understand the many obstacles that can create an impasse. When you restrict a guy's right to do business in your state, you become exposed to potential legal liability. Every proposal has to be able to withstand a legal challenge.

3. Rep Patrick and Sen Tarr need to get together to work out some sort of solution.
I'm sure other Reps and Senators will be involved, and I was grateful to hear their positions as well. However, for an outsider, IMO it seemed like these 2 had the best working relationship in the meeting.

If anyone from MA can weigh in on this I would appreciate it. I'm not well-versed with who has the real power in those rooms.

4. The problem lies in the slot.
There is too much polarization about that slot issue. People either love it or hate it. There needs to be some other compromise that both sides will accept.

5. Everyone manipulates data to their own agenda.
I saw this first hand, and it was confusing. After thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that some of the reported data and reported catches had to be inaccurate.

6. The commercial figures are off. So are the recreational figures.
Again, the data became confusing to me as each side tried to pick apart the data the other was using. The most logical solution to me was that some people on both sides, comms and recs, are not reporting accurately. This skews the numbers. If people are going to trust each other, IMO you need more accurate reporting and enforcement on both sides.
Hence the proposed saltwater registry, and the eventual fee revenue. I don't know if that will work as intended, but the system in place now isn't working.

7. The attitude of many people regarding striped bass is polarized.
Spawning...For example, when talking about sb spawning, not once was any place other than the Chesapeake mentioned. No mention was made of the Hudson River, where (allegedly) 4 million bass spawn a year. I feel many people are not aware there are various places that bass spawn, Chesapeake, Delaware river, possibly the Raritan river, the Hudson, and possibly some of the larger Connecticut rivers. Bass spawn in fresh water, this is a basic marine fact. One Comm guy even said for all he knew bass could spawn in the ocean. :huh:
I bring up that statement not to slam that guy or Comms as a group. However, it became apparent to me that with all the intelligent statements made at the meeting, we all have a lot to learn and understand about striped bass.

Coastal Dependence of all species...People who are truly concerned about the resource need to understand how a lot of this is connected with what happens in other Coastal states. There was some awareness, and some who only seemed to be concerned with MA.
I understand part of that, but striped bass are a migratory species. What happens with catches, bait migration, spawning conditions affects all states. Again, there were many very intelligent minds at that meeting. :thumbsup:
I personally felt people need to be aware of bass as a shared coastal resource. They also need to be aware how a tightening of other fishing regulations puts pressure on the striped bass.

This education of people seems simple enough. In reality it's extremely hard as people continue to hold onto their traditional beliefs.

Thanks for reading, people. :HappyWave:

I hope the pics, anecdotes, and marriage proposal helped to make this thead an interesting read. :lookhappy:

dogfish

01-16-2010, 11:16 PM

The posting will be here for a historical record, and may be more lengthy than you're used to seeing me post. :eek:

I didn't think that was possible until I scanned this thread. how many cups of coffee today, Dark? :wheeeee:
I couldn't make it to that meeting but heard stripers forever got crushed. You took the tail end of a losing situation and turned it into a good story. Ya done good.:clapping:

vpass

01-17-2010, 10:04 AM

Amazing job Dark, Thanks for your efforts. You got some good reporting skills. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

BassBuddah

01-17-2010, 09:48 PM

Actually, I have some real questions about the testimony presented on both sides. It bugs me that so many only wanted to see their side of things, and refused to consider the position of the other side.

In the end, I realized that's what our representatives, fishing organizations, and lobbyists are for. It seems like dirty politics, but that's how things are run in this world. :kooky:

They listen to our opinions, and then decide among themselves behind closed doors. Our job as voters is to decide who best represents our interests, and then lobby that politician with letters, campaign donations, or donations to a group that can represent us en masse. Otherwise, gov't politely listens, but they are mostly listening to their Constituents.

Constituents as a bloc have the most power in getting politicians' attention because they are the key group that, when mad enough, can vote a politician IN, or OUT OF, office.

I'll be trying to present a fair and balanced paraphrasal of peoples' statements here. I hope my biases don't show through too much. I understand each politician has a self-preservation interest to represent the voters in their district. They are just doing the best to maintain job security, like everyone else.

I will try to point out which politicians seemed more favorable to recreational fishermen, without seeming to endorse a certain politician. You guys and girls in MA have to keep yourselves informed and make your own decisions.

The political landscape is harsh and confusing for lots of folks. That may be why many don't get involved. I think your presentation was very fair and accurate. Thanks for breaking it up with the pictures Dark. :clapping::clapping::clapping:

CharlieTuna

01-18-2010, 08:28 AM

However, I know of both recs and comms who have very creative ways of disregarding the laws and getting away with it. This becomes a bigger problem where you have an activity like fishing, where it's very difficult to have universal compliance.

There aren't enough officers in the field. People who disregard the law regularly know they have a slim chance of getting caught for fishing violations. The fines are so small that it's almost worth it to cheat for the dishonest ones. They view it as the cost of doing business. :don't know why:

Based on the testimony I heard from both sides, here are some of the key issues that need to be addressed:

2. Is it in the best interests of MA to prevent every Comm fisherman from fishing for striped bass?
This issue became confusing the more I heard the testimony from the Comm guys. In the previous post I slammed some of the things the Comm guys do. I also stated that there are abuses on the Rec side as well.
I think the real answer here to a workable solution lies somewhere in the middle:

a. They could immediately put a cap on all new commercial licenses, none permitted for the future.

b. Let guys know that the weekend warrior comm guys would be weeded out from the system. If you can't prove you fish commercially for a living, it might be a good idea to look into why that group has to be gven the privelege of a commercial permit. The commercial permit gives you the right to harvest and carry 30 fish/day. I respectfully submit that if there is abuse of this permit, it's more llikely to be by a guy who doesn't do it for a living. Of course, that's just my opinion.

I know of a few NJ guys who make the run to MA every year to fish commercially. Private intel came in that said some of them were finding ways to take more than their limits. I think it's important for abuses like that to be stopped. As some of those testifying said, when people do that they're stealing from all people in MA. I've also heard of instances of commercial guys living in MA who have sold to restaurants & small independent fish markets where they don't have to report it on their license. This underground industry needs to be looked at.

You touched on some good points. I know 5 guys with commercial licenses. 3 of them openly brag how they are selling outside their license to restaurants and mom and pop fish markets, so it doesn't go on their total. This is more widespread than you think. These abuses have to be stopped with higher fines and better enforcement.

As for the out of state guys, I don't think you can stop them from fishing, as you said. What you can do is make their license cost 10x what a resident pays. Or prove that 50% of their income came from commercial fishing. This is not without precedent. Alaska, Florida, and many other states have license fee differentials for in-state vs out of state. This seems like the fairest in the long run. Here is how they run it in NY -

(ii) Permits to take a full quota share of striped bass will be issued at no cost to persons who currently possess a valid New York State commercial food fish license and who previously held a New York State license to sell striped bass during 1984, 1985, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, or 1995 and who can demonstrate through Federal or New York State income tax records that 50 percent or more of his or her earned income resulted from his or her direct participation in the harvest of marine fish, shellfish, crustaceans or other marine biota in any one year during the period 1994 through 2004. A complete copy of such tax record must be filed with the department upon application.
(iii) Permits to take a partial quota share of striped bass will be issued at no cost to persons who currently possess a valid New York State commercial food fish license and who previously held a New York State license to sell striped bass during 1984, 1985, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, or 1995 but who cannot demonstrate that they earned 50 percent or more of their earned income from the direct participation in the harvest of marine fish, shellfish, crustaceans or other marine biota.
(iv) Any holder of a partial share permit may apply for a full share permit by demonstrating through federal or state tax records that 50 percent or more of his or her earned income has been derived from the direct participation in the harvest of marine fish, shellfish, crustaceans or other marine biota during the preceding year.
(v) Beginning in 2005, and continuing at five year intervals, each striped bass commercial harvesters permit holder in the full share category must file with the department a complete copy of his or her federal or state income tax records from one of the preceding three years. Such tax records must be filed before the June 1 deadline for receipt of applications. Such tax records must demonstrate that the permit holder has, as stated in subparagraph (ii) above, maintained the 50 percent earned income level in order to remain a participant in the full share category. Failure to file a timely and complete copy of federal or state income tax records which demonstrate that the permit holder has maintained the 50 percent earned income level will result in the permit holder being placed into the partial share category. Thereafter, the rules pertaining to partial share permit holders provided in subparagraph (iv) above apply.

dogfish

01-18-2010, 01:54 PM

You touched on some good points. I know 5 guys with commercial licenses. 3 of them openly brag how they are selling outside their license to restaurants and mom and pop fish markets, so it doesn't go on their total. This is more widespread than you think. These abuses have to be stopped with higher fines and better enforcement.

As for the out of state guys, I don't think you can stop them from fishing, as you said. What you can do is make their license cost 10x what a resident pays. Or prove that 50% of their income came from commercial fishing. This is not without precedent. Alaska, Florida, and many other states have license fee differentials for in-state vs out of state. This seems like the fairest in the long run.

CT is right on the $$ about this. Way too much abuse in the commercial permit area. 30 fish a day is too much of a temptation for the sleazebags who want to cheat. Another solution is to cut the commercial harvest/day, down to 10 or 15 bass. This would give the hardworking MA fishermen a longer season. Then, once quota is reached, shut it down.

That might make it harder for the out of state guys who come up here trailering their $50k boats to make their $20k in a months time. I'm not looking to get into a war of state vs state, but you can tell who these guys are. It's like a gold rush for some of them. And I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this, but I don't like them. They come up here to rape our resource.

clamchucker

01-18-2010, 03:13 PM

I think they need to concentrate on the abuses as well. Dark did a good job pointing out that recreationals kill most of the fish. This happens because every year you have more people taking up striped bass fishing. Also, with all the closures and restrictions, people spending their dollars on the party boat circuit would naturally prefer to target bass.
This will explode in our faces. I think there will be resistance to modifications until we reach the point that some of the year classes are wiped out. I see a long slow rebuilding process like we had in the 1980s. I hope I am in error. Like it was said, there is too much polarization and not enough people willing to work together. Fine job Dark.:clapping::clapping:

crosseyedbass

01-19-2010, 11:43 AM

rockhopper

01-19-2010, 12:00 PM

It would be so much easier if they made it one keeper for the whole east coast.

ledhead36

01-19-2010, 02:40 PM

The commerical fishermen don't look too kindly on stripers forever. The article is three pages but worth reading.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=9601383&page=1

nitestrikes

01-20-2010, 04:33 AM

6. Representative Matthew Patrick: (Representing Recs) from Bourne, Mashpee, Barnstable

9310

b. 3000 Commercial permits were taken out in 2008, at a fee of $65. Of those 3000, only 1207 permit holders reported catching any fish. It is my understanding that they do this to ensure a consistent portion of quota is given to commercial fishermen.

. The goal of all of us should be to look at the breeding females and figure out how to protect them.

Here are my recommendations in addition to supporting this bill:
1. Figure out a way to save the spawning females.
2. Find a way to buy out commercial fishermen so they are not financially impacted if we pass this gamefish bill.
3. I would like to see a slot fish limit of 20-26", and the number of keeper bass reduced from 2 to 1. "

*************************
4. David Halbinson, rf, and charter captain, Halston, MA, speaking in support of the bill
"60 yrs fishing... there has been a precipitous drop in rf catches since 2006 according to NOAA and NMFS.
DMF striped bass permit breakdown:
What is the distribution of those who sell fish?
a. Only 453 reported they actually sold fish. That means approx 9% of permit holders sold 73% of all fish.
b. The total income brought into MA by all cf license holders is approx $3.4mm before taxes. This translates to approx $2800/yr. Assuming costs of doing business, I find it hard to believe these guys who are cf are making around $2800/year or substantially less on selling bass.

Are these figures and reported income accurate? Someone needs to look at this. "

I didn't study every post in this thread but those 2 jumped out at me. There's no way those guys are only making $2800/year bass fishing.
I have a friend who owns a pizzeria. He tried to tell the IRS he was making 20k a year while he was making $80k. They almost put my friend in jail for one year of misstated income. He had to sell his house and move in with the parents so he wouldn't go to jail because the penalties were so high and they were going to seize his business. If the IRS can audit pizza joints they should audit commercial fishmen. Some of those guys have to be lying I hope they get caught.

BassBuddah

01-20-2010, 06:50 PM

I like some of the articles on the stripers forever site. They seem reasonable. When you talk about buying out commercial fishermen who catch less than the rest of the people, that part i find hard to understand. Like everyone said, there should be something in between that can be worked on. I'm definitely ok with only allowing one keeper per trip for everyone. My .02.

I wondered if people are aware of the regs in Rhode Island. Rhode island permits commercial fishing but limits the guys to 5/day. That seems like a more reasonable number. You're hardly going to get a gold rush of guys entering the state for that limit. Sounds like a good plan to me.

"While Massachusetts fishermen can also fish Rhode Island waters for striped bass, they can only take five fish per day per fisherman while Massachusetts allows daily catch limits of 30 fish per fisherman. "

DarkSkies

01-21-2010, 10:06 AM

. You took the tail end of a losing situation and turned it into a good story. Ya done good.:clapping:

Stripers Forever isn't down for the count. They still have support and recognition among groups of Rec anglers. They're not going away. They won't be forced out of business. And they remain committed to getting their positions known throughout the angling world.

I felt a lot more guys could have given them support that day. Maybe this will bring awareness of how much more advance work needs to be done for next time. In the end, I think all sides will have to work out some of the most contentious issues for a compromise that will be passed by both groups in the Legislature. That will take some time.

Meanwhile, for anyone who wants to see some of the media reports, this came from StripersForever:

Stripers Forever members - now is time for all members everywhere to support our efforts in MA by writing letters to the editor of papers that have written recently about striped bass. Our press consultant worked with Associated Press to get a good national story that was picked up by news outlets throughout the US. Locally, the story ran in the Boston Herald online, Brockton Enterprise, WBZ-TV online, Worcester Telegram and Gazette online, ABC News online, and the Gloucester Daily News. Additionally, tons and tons of news outlets nationally also ran the story.

Today, the Gloucester Daily News ran a thoughtful piece by Richard Gaines, a veteran Boston-area newsman who writes fulltime on fishery issues.

See the story here: http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_019230624.html?keyword=topstory (http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_019230624.html?keyword=topstory)

We also know that the Cape Cod Times will soon release a story on the bill. Given the very hard-line commercial stance of this paper we can't expect it to be fair, but it still provides a forum for our comments.

DarkSkies

01-21-2010, 10:13 AM

Here's the one from the Gloucester times:

http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_019230624.html?keyword=topstory (http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_019230624.html?keyword=topstory)

Published: January 20, 2010 05:52 am
13 (http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_019230624.html#disqus_thread)

Commercial fishing for striped bass under fire Group asks lawmakers to end commercial landings.
By Richard Gaines
Staff Writer

A recreational fishing organization is pressing the Massachusetts Legislature to end commercial fishing for striped bass — the great inshore migratory prize whose stocks have yo-yoed over time, and now show signs of declining again.

Stripers Forever, a Maine-based group and the author of the bill to make stripers strictly a game fish, couches the argument in economic as well as conservation terms.

"Fundamentally," said Jeffrey Krasner, spokesman for Stripers Forever, "our argument is economic. What we're saying is that striped bass are worth a lot more as a game fish than as a commercial fishery."

The organization has also highlighted data showing a precipitous decline in recreational catches of stripers — harvested and released — from the National Marine Fishery Service.

According to NMFS, the catch along the Atlantic coast after peaking at 28.6 million fish in 2006 declined each of the next three years, to 19.1 million fish in 2007, 14 million a year later and 6.9 million last year.

The recreational striper catch in Massachusetts followed the same pattern: from 9 million in 2006, to 6.1 million, then 4 million and finally 2.6 million last year.

According to NMFS data, the 2009 catch in Massachusetts was lower than any dating to 1995, when the striper was rebounding from near wipeout status brought about by the industrial pollution of the great estuaries where the bass spawned, the Hudson, Delaware and Chesapeake Rivers, and indiscriminate fishing.

Striper catches bottomed out in the 1980s, then the bass was put under the protection of the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, which negotiated size minimums. Meanwhile, beginning in the 1970s, states and the federal government began to trace and prosecute polluters.

At its hearing on the bill last Thursday, opponents far outnumbered proponents before the Legislature's Joint Committee on Environment, Natural Resources and Agriculture. The committee has not scheduled an executive session to vote on the bill which was filed for Stripers Forever by Rep. Matthew C. Patrick, D-Falmouth.

The Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission considers the declining catch in recent years a return to more normal levels after optimal growth, and continues to believe stripers are "one of the healthier (stocks) along the Atlantic coast," said Nichola Meserve, the striper coordinator for the commission.

Gloucester's striped bass guru, Al Williams, who fishes recreationally and commercially, holds a similar view.
"My personal opinion is they are still in pretty good shape," said Williams. "We're fishing below the peak, but the peak ... four or five years ago ... was pretty phenomenal."

Williams said he believes the stocks have not declined so much as they have been drawn into deeper waters away from the fishermen following bait fish.

Migratory patterns have changed," said Williams "I've gotten similar observations from Montauk (Long Island, N.Y.) and Connecticut."

Chuck Cassella, a recreational charter boat captain, said he opposed the ban on commercial fishing for stripers.
"Fisheries shouldn't be managed through legislation," said Cassella, who charters out of Winthrop. "There is a dynamic aspect to reacting to stocks on a yearly basis. We have a regulatory process in place that responds to stocks."

The commercial catch in Massachusetts is limited to 1 million pounds, and is typically surpassed slightly.
The commercial season is in mid-season, until the catch limit is reached, and then closed.

Stripers typically return to Cape Ann waters around May 1 and the last laggard doesn't leave until the end of October. Some of the stock also stays over in the Essex River and other estuaries.

Stripers also winter in the south-facing rivers along Southern New England, but most of the stripers return to their spawning waters or aggregate into massive schools that live partially dormant lives off the Middle Atlantic Coast.

albiealert

01-21-2010, 03:02 PM

jonthepain

01-23-2010, 10:33 AM

Amazing report, Rich. It'll take me time to digest it all, but I'm still for gamefish status and slot limits.

Thanks for all your time and effort.

And objectivity.

DarkSkies

02-08-2010, 10:31 PM

Here's some e-mail resources from StripersForever if anyone wants to contact the MA legislators. There's also a suggested e-mail template for people to send out:

Mass state directory: http://www.mass.gov/legis/ (http://www.mass.gov/legis/%20)

Representative Matt Patrick Rep.MatthewPatrick@hou.state.ma.us,

Stripers Forever membership - the MA Joint Committee on Natural Resources and the Environment will soon take action on H796 the striped bass game fish bill. Last month there was a committee hearing that was very lightly attended by legislators, so they are still very much open to public input. Let's let them know what we think!

We are asking you at this important time to contact or recontact every member of the Committee as well as your own legislator. Remember, a letter sent by postal mail is best, but an e-mail is far better than no comment at all. Phone calls to their offices are also great.

Here is a sample letter that you can send. Writing something in your own words, though, is even better.

Dear Representative or Senator.

I urge you to vote for H796 a bill that would designate striped bass as a game fish in Massachusetts state waters. Here is why:

Professional studies show that recreational fishing for striped bass provides many times more economic activity and jobs than does the commercial fishery.
Striped bass, after a population collapse in the 1980s, are again in trouble. The commercial fishery wrongly focuses on the prime breeding age female fish.
Recreational striped bass fishing has made Cape Cod and the Islands a prime destination for traveling fishermen. Many guides are employed by this fishery.
Massachusetts would join Maine, NH, and CT as New England states that have protected striped bass from commercial exploitation.
Striped bass are an important recreation for me personally, and the quality of that fishing is deteriorating.

Striped bass migrate to Massachusetts from Chesapeake Bay, and are known to be heavily contaminated with mercury, PCBs, and a flesh-eating disease called mycobacteriosis. The Environmental Defense Fund says that no one should consume these fish. People buying these fish assume that the government has tested them and they are safe. This is not true.

Fishing for striped bass is an important recreation for me and the quality of it is slipping away rapidly. I urge you to vote for H796 and make striped bass a game fish today.

Sincerely;

For additional information this link (http://www.stripersforever.org/Info/Stripers_BBoard/I01325ACA) will take you to a letter posted on the SF website that Representative Matt Patrick recently sent to members of the Massachusetts legislature commenting on the committee hearing and the importance of passing H796. You may want to read it before finalizing your comments to legislators

DarkSkies

02-19-2010, 06:32 PM

Sent in by Finchaser, and StripersForever

Stripers Forever members - Henri Rauschenbach, our lobbyist who works with us to advance the Massachusetts striped bass game fish. bill, regularly holds fundraisers for some members of the legislature. Supporting legislators that are, or could be, helpful in furthering our quest for striped bass game fish in Massachusett is important. If you choose to send any financial contribution (s), be sure to include a note asking the legislator to support H796, the striped bass conservation bill. Any contributions should be made out to the campaign of the individual person; i.e.: Committee to Elect Robert DeLeo.

Here is a schedule of upcoming fundraising events that Henri is holding in Boston for various legislators:

2010 FUNDRAISING SCHEDULE

Feb. 26 Friday Rep. Robert DeLeo, Speaker of the House Union Club 8:30 - 9:30AM

Mar 2 Tuesday Senator Ben Downing, Senate Chairman of the Joint Committee on Revenue Parker House 8:30 - 9:30AM

Mar 23 Tuesday Senator Therese Murray Senate President Union Club 8:30 - 9:30AM

April 13 Tuesday Senator Anthony Petruccelli Co-Chairman of theJoint Committee on the Environment and Natural Resources Parker House 8:30 -9:30AM

If you want to attend any of these fundraisers, please touch base with Henri for exact event locations, directions, how to make your check out etc.

If you can't attend, but wish to contribute, please send your check to: Henri Rauschenbach, P.O.Box 1064, Brewster, MA 02631 (made payable as above)

If you have questions about the events feel free to contact Henri directly at::

henri@smithandrauschenbach.com (http://us.mc450.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=henri@smithandrauschenbach.co) or phone him at 774-994-0601

plugcrazy

02-20-2010, 07:13 PM

I don't make much during these hard times but I'll put a check in the mail. Thanks for posting it Dark and bringing it to our attention again.

DarkSkies

03-10-2010, 08:59 AM

This is the latest development. Sent in by Finchaser, thanks!

Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:30 AM
Subject: [Stripers_FED] H796

Stripers Forever members - the Massachusetts game fish bill H796 has been referred for further study by the Natural Resource committee. This is a maneuver designed to keep a bill from getting to the floor to be debated by the full legislature. In Massachusetts, as in many coastal states, the committee that oversees natural resources is stacked with coastal legislators who represent commercial fishing communities. Those who sell their catch of striped bass are very motivated to continue the practice, and they made a strong showing at the committee hearing.

What does this mean for the future of striped bass game fish in the Commonwealth? In the longer run it doesn't mean anything, because the issue is anything but static. But for now, it means that this bill will probably not come out of committee this year. The bill could be pulled out of study at any time if it became obvious to legislators that striped bass were really in dire straits, and we will be sure to introduce any evidence that further indicates that. Part of the committee's skepticism towards H796 is the reliance on the Department of Marine Fisheries assurances that striped bass are in great shape, even though the recreational catch has been in serious decline for the last four seasons.

However, there are other ways to accomplish the goal of game fish designation for striped bass in Massachusetts. The social and economic impacts of recreational fishing for striped bass are far reaching. Showing key legislators that significant jobs, tourism, and tax revenues will be lost if striped bass fishing continues to decline could result in the bill being included in a more comprehensive piece of financial legislation. Educating lawmakers on the health issues related to consuming wild stripers can also heavily influence their vote. These and other ways to pass striped bass game fish legislation in Massachusetts are being worked on by Stripers Forever's Massachusetts board and lobbyists.

Without a real and acknowledged crisis it is difficult to break the status quo. In the last year we have educated many Massachusetts legislators on the importance of the recreational fishing, tourism fishing and guiding industry for striped bass. We made a lot of friends who are committed to giving striped bass the same game fish designation in this state as three other New England states. The decision to send H796 to study rather than put it out onto the floor at this time may actually be a good thing, as it gives us additional time to build our case with more legislators. This is but a step along the way, as opposed to the end of the path, and our work will continue. Everyone in Massachusetts should be proud of Representative Matt Patrick for having the foresight to see striped bass fishing for what it could be, and for not being afraid to champion it. The striped bass owe Matt a great deal for the start he has given to legislation that will eventually take the price off their head as they migrate through the waters of the Commonwealth.

Here is a link to website to the testimony that **** Russell, author of Striper Wars (http://whitedeercafe.blogspot.com/2010/03/****-russell-on-state-of-striped-bass.html), gave to the Natural Resource Committee

CharlieTuna

02-17-2012, 03:50 PM

There is another hearing Feb 28, fellas. Hopefully we will get some traction this time. Hope to see some guys from NJ there. From StripersForever site.

Dark will you be going to report on this again?

CharlieTuna

02-17-2012, 05:31 PM

From AP news feed-

BOSTON (AP) _ The feisty and enormously popular striped bass would be off limits to all commercial fishermen in Massachusetts under a proposal being considered by state lawmakers.

The bill would ban the commercial catch of striped bass in state waters and limit recreational fishermen to taking home one striped bass per day _ down from two _ while imposing new size restrictions.

The proposal to make stripers a "game fish" comes at a time when regulators say the once-rare sport fish is abundant, not overfished and reproducing at a healthy clip. But the bill's backers say the science is off and fear regulators are setting up a population crash by allowing commercial fishermen to pluck out the most productive stripers _ large females.

"They managed to crash the fish once before, why do we want to let them do it again?" said Craig Caldwell, a recreational fisherman and member of Stripers Forever, a group that supports the bill and "advocates eliminating all commercial fishing for wild striped bass," according to a mission statement.

Darren Saletta, a commercial fishermen from Chatham, said the bill is being driven by Stripers Forever's "greedy intention of retaining the entire catch for their recreational side."

If saving fish is the goal, Saletta said, it makes no sense to go after commercial fishermen when recreational fishermen catch more than 80 percent of the stripers landed in Massachusetts. Still, he added, there are plenty of striped bass.

"(Striped bass) is a poster child for fisheries," he said. "It's healthy. It's flourishing. ... It's creating jobs. It's putting food on the table."

Stripers are popular among sport fishermen because they can be tough to catch and are fiery fighters when hooked. Fishermen are protective of the stripers because they saw the stock collapse to about 5 million fish in 1982, before rebounding to an estimated 56 million in 2007, according to the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, which manages stripers on the Atlantic coast.

The bill's sponsor, Rep. Matthew Patrick, D-Falmouth, said a healthy striper stock is worth about $1 billion to the state's tourism business, and keeping it robust is essential.

"The worst thing that could happen is for this fishery to collapse again," he said.

The bill's advocates see troubling signs, including a wasting disease that's hit the species, anecdotal evidence of fewer fish and federal numbers that showed a steep 71 percent drop in stripers landed in Massachusetts _ from about 9 million in 2006 to about 2.6 million last year.

Patrick said he's also troubled by a decline in the number of breeding females, which fell from 2003 to 2008, though the 2008 estimate is still higher than any year in the two decades before 2003.

Caldwell, 46, of Harwich, said he caught about 40 stripers last year, compared with 100 or more in years past. And he didn't see the mid-sized fish that would become the fishery's key spawners in future years.

"What the old guys tell me is this is exactly what happened before the last crash," he said

Stripers Forever says ending commercial striper fishing has worked to improve the stock's health in other New England states _ including Connecticut, New Hampshire and Maine _ and, subsequently, the value of the recreational fishery. Meanwhile, it would affect what group spokesman Jeffrey Krasner called a "tiny handful" of commercial fishermen.

The state Division of Marine Fisheries issues an annual average of 4,000 commercial striped bass fishing permits, but only about 1,200 permit-holders report selling at least one fish, said agency spokeswoman Catherine Williams. About 275 fishermen sell a thousand pounds or more (at around $3 per pound), with 35 or those selling 5,000 pounds or more.

Saletta says he's in the latter group this year, but is also a shellfisherman and lobsterman. It would be devastating to hundreds of fishermen if the bill passed and they suddenly lost a chunk of income, he said.

"You've got to take part in several fisheries in order to piece together a living," said Saletta, 34.

The dropping catch is not a sign of an unhealthy stock, but a changing environment that's moving the stock away from fishermen, said Ben Martens, a policy analyst for the Cape Cod Commercial Hook Fishermen's Association. All striper fishermen are restricted to state waters, which extend three miles from shore, but the fish are following their food to deeper waters and also moving away from rising inshore water temperatures, he said.

Nichola Meserve, the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission's striper coordinator, said the stock assessments are based on the best available science and show striped bass, including the female population, well above target levels. The drops in recent years reflect a return to the average from a historic high in 2004, she said.

"It's considered, I think, to be one of the healthier (stocks) along the Atlantic coast," Meserve said.

The Massachusetts bill has yet to move before the House, and Patrick said Friday he's open to compromise, perhaps buyouts for commercial fishermen or tighter restrictions on them.

"I just want to get to resolution of this problem that I foresee," Patrick said.

DarkSkies

02-22-2012, 08:45 AM

Dark will you be going to report on this again?

Charlie, I feel I did my part with the last hearing, where a few recs attended, but we were outnumbered, and Out-lobbied by Comms.

It was the same in the Fishermens' March on Washington which G and I also attended and documented.
Even though Comms and Recs were united in unity at that rally, the Comms clearly outnumbered the Recreatioal presence there.

And, as I'm pretty compulsive at counting and estimating crowd size, there were definitely less than the 5000 fishermen there that were claimed to have been counted. To me, that's a sad thing, since so many Recreational guys have a long-term stake in these issues. Yet, it seems many can't be bothered.... :don't know why:

I have also done my part to publicize these issues, and the Fisherman Access issues, like Shoreham Beach, LBI Access, etc, on many web-sites out there...When you do a search on some of these rallies, my detailed posts asking for support come up again, and again.....

Yet I wonder if anyone has been listening, beyond the 5% or less of guys who traditionally get involved in things like this.....:huh:

So for now, I have talken a step back, and will not be going to that hearing.
If you or anyone else who wants to keep folks informed would care to keep us posted on the updates, I would appreciate it.

That goes for the current Fishermens' Rally scheduled in Washington.
If anyone wants to start a separate thread on it as well, feel free.

I'll try to dig up our old thread on that, and all the short videos I shot (close to 60) as that date approaches, hopefully to rally some more folks into participation.

Food for thought...
One of the reasons that fishermen, as a group, get so little respect politically, is that many politicians know that most of us will not get together and organize, and they can ignore us, until PACS like the RFA and others come knocking on their door....

And to me, that is a shame, it really is.....