Dark Skies Conservation Corner [Archive] - Stripersandanglers Forums

DarkSkies

01-21-2013, 02:15 PM

This is a recent number for the Chesapeake YOY....
Other numbers for the Hudson and Delaware stocks may be different........

The significance, is that this stat is 90% less than when the YOY showing was at it's highest.

Yes you read those figures right, folks.....90% less.......:scared:

for those of ya's who are :huh: or :don't know why:....we'll try to come back in this thread, and explain why these numbers are alarming, and historically significant.....

As some of ya's can see, I don't have as much time for these threads as I used to....so if anyone, can find ANY info on this stat, and ANYTHING related to this topic of Conservation.....Fin, the Old Farts out there, Old Salts, and others, and I. would be most grateful.........

If you don't understand or disagree with these stats as they relate to the striped bass population....feel free to bring that up as well...and we'll try our best to answer these questions, by sharing what those who fish every day....are seeing......

I know many think of these types of threads as less interesting....but you can read about what is happpening now......
Or take up golf, if it becomes necessary to institute another Striped Bass Moratorium........

And with the YOY Chesapeake stats that low....that's the direction this is heading.......:(

Thanks for reading, folks......:HappyWave:

storminsteve

01-21-2013, 03:52 PM

90% that is so hard to understand. I had no idea that number would be so off. Ithink it was last year or 2011 they were saying the Hudson or Chesapeake year of the young numbers were good. I think finchaser or someone else pointed out that although one year might be good it would take 8 years for those small fry to fully mature.

finchaser

01-21-2013, 06:24 PM

there are full charts to back all this up in thismonths Saltwater Sportsman magazine

Monty

01-24-2013, 07:04 AM

Fin and I were talking about this......and we knew it was time for another thread.....
(I can imagine as many of you are reading this, you are simultaneously rolling your eyes....:rolleyes:...and thinking [B]"No, not again! When is he gonna get off this bandwagon....I'm sick of hearing it....all this Negativity!

I'm not sick of hearing it. I am frustrated that very little is being done to address this.
What is being done? Some people have limited their kill to very few if any Stripers. Some people have limited the size of their kill "not killing the big girls".
What else is being done?
What percentage of people who fish for Stripers do you think actually care about this?

Like buckethead posted, guys like mentioned here don't care one bit.

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8791-Fishing-for-Fun-or-Glory

DarkSkies

01-24-2013, 03:00 PM

What percentage of people who fish for Stripers do you think actually care about this?

I agree with ya, Monty....and it saddens me......
I try to raise awareness as best I can....and over the years have noticed there are now more trying to raise awareness......

Overall, though, there are more folks that don't care, than do care......
A big issue is trying to get through to guys who only fish from boats......to them they may not be seeing any differences as they can morv around to find the middle of a group of fish..........

I had to come terms with this recently as I developed friendships with some charter capts who also say they care about conservation....
Yet.....
In our conversations I began to realize that we had different perspectives as we fish different zones........

DarkSkies

01-24-2013, 03:00 PM

So, long-term, the goal is to educate folks, without apprearing to be self-rightous.......a delicate walk of diplomacy and choosing your words carefully.....

And trying to consolidate and identify the others out there who have a long term perspective and have real concerns for the future of the bass,.....hoping that these folks can energize the others, if not by words, by example......

jigfreak

01-24-2013, 05:41 PM

I
A big issue is trying to get through to guys who only fish from boats......

I think total numbers show that boat guys catch about 94% of all bass and surf guys catch the other 6% if you are looking at the breakdown of all rec catches. So why not go after the ones that do the most damage?

jonthepain

01-24-2013, 08:44 PM

and therein lies the rub

buckethead

01-25-2013, 09:29 AM

and therein lies the rub

Makes you wonder if anything other than a moratorium will ever change anything. You can talk to some people till you're blue in the face they will not listen. Thanks for trying, though.

DarkSkies

01-25-2013, 11:00 AM

I think total numbers show that boat guys catch about 94% of all bass and surf guys catch the other 6% if you are looking at the breakdown of all rec catches. So why not go after the ones that do the most damage?

Jigfreak, I agree and your stats are right on when you are talking about the breakdown among recreational anglers.

Let's assume there is some error in there, and say that surf anglers catch about 20% of the bass.(even though that is a large overstatement)
That means that 80% or more, of striped bass are harvested by anglers other than surf anglers.

Reaching that group has been a problem.
I'm registered on most of the popular saltwater sites out there and try to promote discussion on this every winter. For some years it has been tough, as a lot of the guys, as mentioned, don't want to hear it.

However, recently some well-known Capts have voiced their opinions that the rate we are harvesting, is greater than the reproduction rate.
This cannot continue without a decline.

*******
For the last 5-8 years, some others and I have seen a decline in our logs of fish caught, and tried to pay more attention to why. The best answer we can come up with (among many possibilities) is that there is a decline in the biomass.

DarkSkies

01-25-2013, 11:15 AM

Other factors, mycobacteriosis, offshore migration, different temperature trends, global warming, can all be cited as well.....

However, in conversations with folks who fish a lot, averaging at least a few trips a week, I have seen that the general consensus is that we are harvesting too many.

Here is just one example of what fishermen are saying....
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7755-Candid-conversations-with-fishermen-about-striped-bass&highlight=timers

The solution to this would seem simple, by collectively reducing our harvest....

It's important to note that this decline continues despite the highly touted YOY figures for the Hudson stock 2 years ago....one good number cannot sustain an entire fishery......and that's why it's important to continue to educate folks as to what is really happening out there.

To do that, requires credible voices in all connected fisheries, to stand up and speak plainly about what they are seeing, without seeming they are preaching.

I do agree with your claim, jigfreak, that surf fishermen are part of the problem, but a much smaller part.

And that is the biggest challenge we need to work on out there....to try and enlighten the other 90%.

Thanks for the opinions folks...all are appreciated. :thumbsup:

jonthepain

01-25-2013, 09:50 PM

keep up the good work. it's big time worth it.

lostatsea

01-26-2013, 10:32 AM

^^X2. Maybe we will have to have the government change the regs. In the meantime raising awareness can't hurt. thanks and keep it up.

DarkSkies

01-28-2013, 01:02 PM

If we don't watchout the Stripers will be in the same boat as the whiting for next generation of fisherman.:soapbox::burn::waaah:
Absolutely vpass......thanks for making that point..:thumbsup:...I know you have been fishing for them your whole life, since you were a kid.....

The educatlon of the younger anglers out there is a critical part of the process......
There are some of the newer guys in their 20's starting to understand...and seeing the benefit of C&R...but the thing about C&R fishing is you can't push it on anyone...nor should you try...
...the best way to reach people is through education.
We try our best to do that here....
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?5854-Catch-and-release-thread

There are a core group of fishermen who refuse to believe there is anything wrong with the bass stocks.....
Such as the ones that point to the Hudson YOY 2011 # as proof of a strong biomass....

What folks need to understand is that the most important stats are not a single YOY tally....but the trendiing upward or downward of stats as taken over a broad time frame, like a 5-10 year period.

And when you look at it as an aggregate of YOY stats in combination of what it harvested, over a minimum period of a decade or more....
It's hard to argue that the bass stocks are as healthy as they were...because overall, there has been a decline.....

Most importantly, as the old timers here keep stating over and over....
We are harvesting at a greater rate, than the bass are being replaced......
This is the critical trend that we need to help the folks out there understand...before it really is too late......:learn:

DarkSkies

01-28-2013, 01:23 PM

Absolutely vpass......thanks for making that point..:thumbsup:...I know you have been fishing for them your whole life, since you were a kid.....

The educatlon of the younger anglers out there is a critical part of the process......
There are some of the newer guys in their 20's starting to understand...and seeing the benefit of C&R...the thing about C&R fishing is you can't push it on anyone...nor should you try...
...the best way to reach people is through education.
We try our best to do that here....
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?5854-Catch-and-release-thread

There are a core group of fishermen who refuse to believe there is anything wrong with the bass stocks.....
Such as the ones that point to the Hudson YOY 2011 # as proof of a strong biomass....

What folks need to understand is that the most important stats are not a single YOY tally....but the trending upward or downward of stats as taken over a broad time frame, like a 5-10 year period.

And when you look at it as an aggregate of YOY stats in combination of what it harvested, over a minimum period of a decade or more....
It's hard to argue that the bass stocks are as healthy as they were...because overall, there has been a decline.....

Most importantly, as the old timers here keep stating over and over....
**We are harvesting at a greater rate, than the bass are being replaced......
This is the critical trend that we need to help the folks out there understand...before it really is too late......:learn:

Because of the trends I was seeing, 2 years ago I decided to document Coastwide what was happening with the bass stocks...broken down by regional observations, with a bi-annual assessment period.

Admittedly it's a crude attempt....as there are no scientific data points that would allow scientists to accept it as valid........
but folks reading it should know that somehow, over the years, I've managed to meet and befriend hundreds of fishermen who fish regularly......

This thread, which attempts to qualify this decline on an annual basis.......is the result of hundreds of conversations every year, with fishermen who fish regularly, and have been fishing for decades.
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7784-StripersandAnglers-yearly-coastwide-fish-stock-assessment-state-of-the-fishery&highlight=yearly+bass+assessment

DarkSkies

01-28-2013, 01:27 PM

From our thread, "Striped Bass have never been healthier"

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...Been-Healthier (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8690-The-Striped-Bass-Have-Never-Been-Healthier)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cc8bCOOfFs4

This is just a paraphrase of what Bill Wetzel is saying........

**I agree with it all, as I have seen it, and every year have to try to explain to guys who are new to the sport, why the fishing they are saying is "Epic" at Montauk is but a mere shadow of what it was, just 7 short years ago

Bill Wetzel.....
"There are thousands of sandeels at Montauk in the Spring, thousands of them......
Fluke blitzing on them, all over, but not one bass.....
This is a common occurrence......
A smorgasbord of fluke, sandeels, bait...but no bass........

This summer, there was tons of bait on the North and South shore, no small bass on them....
Some blame the water temps....F*** that! I take the water temps every time I go out, and it was not the temperature...

I'm out there all the time, 40 hours a week, and I know what I see....If striped bass are so healthy how come they haven't expanded their range?
Guides in Maine are quitting there are so few bass there they can't make a living from them...

Last year fishing at Montauk was terrible...this year we got some nice fish, true, but where were all the smaller bass? ..7 years ago it was a no brainer to catch numbers at Montauk"

DarkSkies

01-28-2013, 01:50 PM

Additionally, the other threads you see listed below, are some of many here that try to educate folks who may not know, understand, or may only have been fishing a few seasons and may not have this perspective....

1. Candid conversations:
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7755-Candid-conversations-with-fishermen-about-striped-bass

2. Striped Bass have never been healthier?
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8690-The-Striped-Bass-Have-Never-Been-Healthier

3. Back Bay and Bait Fishing and Migration Patterns
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?5149-S-amp-A-Education-Series-Understanding-FALL-back-bay-bait-migration-and-fishing-patterns

4. Where are the Striped Bass?
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?760-Where-are-the-Striped-Bass&highlight=where+are+the+bass

5. Honey the Striped Bass are Shrinking!
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8450-Honey-the-Striped-Bass-are-Shrinking-How-to-Recognize-the-Signs&highlight=where+are+the+bass

6. www.StripersAndAnglers.com Coastwide Bass Assessment
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...***+assessment (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7784-StripersandAnglers-yearly-coastwide-fish-stock-assessment-state-of-the-fishery&highlight=yearly+bass+assessment)

What's important is these are not random opinions by me on a soapbox, but a compilation of hundreds of critically honest observations by Captains and Anglers...all along the East Coast, who I have been fortunate enough to meet and remain in contact with. I'm very grateful for their opinions as these are the folks who fish more than most.....:thumbsup:

And absent quantitative data, or data that is sometimes flawed or skewed (look at the recent dispute in the Seabass assessments and biomass calcs)

I would submit that this Qualitative method of gathering and presenting assessments of hundreds of anglers...is as accurate a picture as you wll get at this time....and can been seen as a compelling indicator of
1. Trends
2. Concerns
3. Rationales
4. Critical Field Observations

DarkSkies

01-28-2013, 09:43 PM

I know these Conservation posts are not the most interesting to talk about....that's why you see lots of highlighting and Smiley icons.....:) :HappyWave:

Folks need to understand how they are all inter-related.....

1. Close down the sea-bass, folks will put fishing pressure on the fluke...
2. Curtail the fluke and sea-bass, folks will naturally put pressure on another species....namely the striped bass.........

What about groundfish....the Great Codfish Recovery?

DarkSkies

01-28-2013, 09:50 PM

Approx 5 years ago., Codfish were declared recovered.....after years of Commercial restrictions and closed seasons......

We are so quick to blame the Commercial Fishermen for everything....but the simple truth is....in the 5 years it has been opened to Recreational interests. with the first few years having relaxed limits....we have.... as Recreational Fishermen, almost decimated the Cod stocks, again.....:scared:

Threads that talked about that as I and some others were noticing it......

1. Starting with the IC trip
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7526-Cod-Round-Up-2-24-2011-Island-Current-Report/page2&highlight=cod+stocks

2. And the thread talking about Cod overfishing...
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8169-Cod-Overfished-New-Quotas-proposed-Industry-shut-down&highlight=cod+stocks

DarkSkies

01-28-2013, 09:51 PM

Now, it appears that what some of us were dreading....has come to pass...sent in by Fin. thanks......:HappyWave:

Subject: Northeast Fishery

BOSTON (AP) — New England’s top fishing regulator said Friday that crippling cuts in catch limits this year are unavoidable and they will devastate what remains of the region’s once-flourishing fishing industry.

On Friday, John Bullard, head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Northeast office, said key fish populations are so weak, ‘‘draconian’’ cuts in catch are unavoidable.

‘‘They cuts will have devastating impacts on the fleet, and on families, and on ports,’’ he told The Associated Press in an interview.

‘‘That reality is here and we have to face it,’’ Bullard said.

Officials are set to meet next week to decide catch limits for fishermen who chase bottom-dwelling groundfish, such as cod and haddock. A key New England Fishery Management Council committee has already recommended massive cuts that fishermen have repeatedly warned will destroy the industry.

The centuries-old groundfish industry, which pulled in about $90 million in 2011, was a critical part of the nation’s early economy, and is so revered locally that a wooden cod replica hangs in the House chamber of the Massachusetts Statehouse.

Bullard’s statements Friday follow years of battles between the industry, environmentalists and regulators over increasingly tough fishing rules, and months of effort to find some way to avoid catastrophic reductions.

But a new assessment of New England cod stocks, released this month, combined with a low catch this year is more evidence of their poor condition, Bullard said. Tough cuts are mandatory if fish populations are ever going to rebound, he said.

‘‘Yes, stocks can get rebuilt, but they don’t get rebuilt on dreams, they get rebuilt on difficult decisions that get made,’’ he said. ‘‘So that’s what has to happen with New England groundfish.’’

Fishermen have long disputed the accuracy of fishery science that drives regulation, pointing to numerous examples of bad estimates. They also say they've been needlessly squeezed by arbitrary and unneeded rules pushed to promote conservation. Environmentalists counter that regulators have too often caved to the industry, allowing overfishing that hurts stocks.

Bullard said failures by fishery managers are ultimately to blame for weak stocks that haven’t rebounded.

‘‘We set the rules and clearly the rules have failed,’’ he said. ‘‘There’s no other conclusion.’’

The fishery council’s science committee is recommending catch reductions of 81 percent for cod in the Gulf of Maine, to 1,249 metric tons, and 61 percent for cod in Georges Banks, to 2,506 metric tons. As recently as 2003, fishermen caught about 8,000 metric tons of Gulf of Maine cod and about 12,000 metric tons of cod in Georges Bank.

New Hampshire fishermen Dave Goethel, a council member, said the recommend catch limits aren’t ‘‘even remotely enough fish to make any of these boats viable businesses.’’

‘‘We’re not talking about, ‘Oh yeah, we’re going to have a tough year next year,'’’ Goethel said this earlier week. ‘‘We’re talking about, you know, that’s it.'’’

Bullard said he thinks the groundfish industry will ultimately continue in some form, as fishermen seek alternatives to stay in business for now. Some fishermen have already turned to other commercial seafood, such as monkfish or lobster, and Bullard predicts people will hang on until the groundfish get healthy.

The upheaval will be painful, but it’s no different from what other industries face, he said.

‘‘A plant shuts down. A person who’s worked there for 30 years all of the sudden goes to the factory door and it’s closed,’’ Bullard said. ‘‘You learn a new trade and you adapt. ... People adapt and they survive.’’

Goethel said the bulk of his assets and decades of his life are tied up in fishing. At age 59, whatever’s ahead for the industry, he has to ride it out.

‘‘Fishermen are eternal optimists. Every day I go to sea I'm going to have the best day I ever had in my life,’’ he said. ‘‘So, yeah, I'm always optimistic that somehow, some way I haven’t figured out how yet, we'll find a way out of this mess.’’

jonthepain

01-28-2013, 11:21 PM

goodness you've been busy...

that's the old DS I remember

rockhopper

01-29-2013, 11:45 AM

I remember when the cod reports were all of 50 and 55 lb slobs. Didn't take too long for that to go downhill. Thanks for posting on it.

DarkSkies

01-30-2013, 09:37 AM

Jon and Rockhopper, thanks for the kind words.......:HappyWave:

On another board this week, a member was lamenting and questioning where all the 50lb cod went.......
They're dead, been eaten......:whoo:

Nothing wrong with killing and eating fish....that's what you pay for when you go out on a headboat......the most common hope is to fill the cooler as these trips become more expensive......:thumbsup:

Yesterday, Fin reminded me that the cod fishery had a restricted season and very limited exposure to fishermen for 15 years as they tried to alleviate pressure so the stocks could be rebuilt........

In the space of less than 5 years, we (The Recs) have managed to crush them so badly, that the fishery is now being closed again.....:(

DarkSkies

01-30-2013, 09:48 AM

When I look at how quickly this fishery went downhill....

And see all the other fisheries that have restrictions,......
To me, it's easy to see how this will result in more pressure on Striped Bass......

1. Why fish for cod if they are closing it down and the "slob cod" that everyone looks for are dwindling in number?
2. Why fish for seabass, paying close to $200 for an offshore trip when the limit has been reduced from 25 to 15 fish? :don't know why:

The obvious solution for a guy going out on a head boat, and looking to maximixe his catch, is to fish for striped bass......
This pressure has been building for several years with the aforementioned and other closures and restrictions.
Even the limits on the Winter Flounder have pushed some pressure on Striped Bass as many guys in the Spring will not pay to go on a headboat to only catch 2 flounder... I agree, it just isn't worth it.......

DarkSkies

01-30-2013, 09:53 AM

**but it is still worth it to pay the fare on a headboat or 6-pack to target Striped Bass....and this is the central part of the problem that has been building....the increased pressure on striped bass because of reductions or closures in other fisheries.....

This is the thing that I have been trying to raise awareness of here and on other fishing sites.......

And thanks to the many members here who have tried to echo the same understanding over the years..... :clapping: :HappyWave:

jonthepain

01-30-2013, 04:03 PM

captnemo

01-30-2013, 06:36 PM

Thank you for bringing it up. It is criminal what they are doing to the other fisheries in terms of what they say we can and cannot fish for. Fighting for the sea bass took years, and involved the Bogans and another group getting together to hire a scientist to prove that the gov't estimates were not accurate. I forgot the name of the group. I think they were aligned with the SSFFF?

seamonkey

01-31-2013, 01:25 PM

From finchaser answering Leadheads comment

This is a recent number for the Chesapeake YOY....
Other numbers for the Hudson and Delaware stocks may be different........

The significance, is that this stat is 90% less than when the YOY showing was at it's highest.

Yes you read those figures right, folks.....90% less.......:scared:

for those of ya's who are :huh: or :don't know why:....we'll try to come back in this thread, and explain why these numbers are alarming, and historically significant.....

As some of ya's can see, I don't have as much time for these threads as I used to....so if anyone, can find ANY info on this stat, and ANYTHING related to this topic of Conservation.....Fin, the Old Farts out there, Old Salts, and others, and I. would be most grateful.........

If you don't understand or disagree with these stats as they relate to the striped bass population....feel free to bring that up as well...and we'll try our best to answer these questions, by sharing what those who fish every day....are seeing......

I know many think of these types of threads as less interesting....but you can read about what is happpening now......
Or take up golf, if it becomes necessary to institute another Striped Bass Moratorium........

And with the YOY Chesapeake stats that low....that's the direction this is heading.......:(

Thanks for reading, folks......:HappyWave:

They reported on this in Delaware's Cape Gazette too

Striped bass young of the year numbers decline

By Eric Burnley | Jan 19, 2013

http://capegazette.villagesoup.com/media/Common/11/94/758947/t600-2012juvindex.jpg

Source: Submitted

The striped bass young of the year

The state of Maryland has surveyed the young of the year striped bass population since 1955. They haul seine various locations, count the number of striped bass at each site and then compile the results. In 2012, the survey recorded its lowest number on record. The YOY was 0.9, meaning on average, less than one striped bass was caught at each site.

Delaware does not conduct a targeted striped bass YOY survey, but these fish are counted as part of the annual trawl survey. New Jersey does count young of the year rockfish, but those results have not been released. Virginia reported its survey was as poor as Maryland’s.

So what caused this drastic decline in young of the year numbers? The answer may lie in the drought we experienced last winter and spring. The Delaware trawl survey did not record any striped bass fry until it reached the northernmost location in the Delaware River. Maryland indicated it too had saltwater much farther up the bay than is even close to normal. This high salinity would make it very difficult for the fry to survive.

We know that the condition of the water in the upper reaches of the bays and rivers where striped bass spawn is critical to their survival.

When you examine the results of the YOY survey in Maryland, you can see it is made up of highs and lows. There were several above-average year classes from 1955 to 1970, and then a series of below-average classes from 1971 to 1989. Those 18 years of low spawning success resulted in a decline in the striped bass stock to the point of collapse. The striped bass moratorium stopped the harvest of these fish all along the coast. To the surprise of those who opposed this action, once we stopped killing rockfish, they made a remarkable comeback.

In 1989, there was a YOY index that was high enough to trigger an end to the moratorium. The addition of Hambrooks Bar to the list of survey sites was the reason for this better-than-average result. It was the only location that had a count above the average, and it was so high, it brought the overall level to a point higher than anything since 1970. While it was never proven, some of us thought politics might have had a hand in the addition of Hambrooks Bar to a list that had remained the same since 1955.

In the mid-1970s, a State-Federal Advisory Committee was formed to examine the plight of the striped bass. I represented Delaware recreational fishermen, and Roy Miller was there from the Division of Fish and Wildlife. We fought an uphill battle for years trying to come up with regulations that would halt the decline, with very limited success. Finally, Congress gave the Atlantic States Fisheries Advisory Commission the power to enforce regulations, but by then many of us felt a moratorium was the only solution. It was Gov. Hughes from Maryland who ordered a complete moratorium, and Delaware followed shortly thereafter. Other states implemented their own moratoriums, and even the Commonwealth of Virginia was dragged kicking and screaming into compliance.

Today the ASMFC has regulations to prevent a repeat of the decline in the 1970s and '80s. Should the YOY fall below average for three years, regulations would be reviewed and strong actions taken. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen.

http://capegazette.villagesoup.com/p/striped-bass-young-of-the-year-numbers-decline/949333

seamonkey

01-31-2013, 01:28 PM

From finchaser answering Leadheads comment

They reported on this in Delaware's Cape Gazette too

Striped bass young of the year numbers decline

By Eric Burnley | Jan 19, 2013

http://capegazette.villagesoup.com/media/Common/11/94/758947/t600-2012juvindex.jpg

Source: Submitted

The striped bass young of the year

The state of Maryland has surveyed the young of the year striped bass population since 1955. They haul seine various locations, count the number of striped bass at each site and then compile the results. In 2012, the survey recorded its lowest number on record. The YOY was 0.9, meaning on average, less than one striped bass was caught at each site.

Delaware does not conduct a targeted striped bass YOY survey, but these fish are counted as part of the annual trawl survey. New Jersey does count young of the year rockfish, but those results have not been released. Virginia reported its survey was as poor as Maryland’s.

So what caused this drastic decline in young of the year numbers? The answer may lie in the drought we experienced last winter and spring. The Delaware trawl survey did not record any striped bass fry until it reached the northernmost location in the Delaware River. Maryland indicated it too had saltwater much farther up the bay than is even close to normal. This high salinity would make it very difficult for the fry to survive.

We know that the condition of the water in the upper reaches of the bays and rivers where striped bass spawn is critical to their survival.

When you examine the results of the YOY survey in Maryland, you can see it is made up of highs and lows. There were several above-average year classes from 1955 to 1970, and then a series of below-average classes from 1971 to 1989. Those 18 years of low spawning success resulted in a decline in the striped bass stock to the point of collapse. The striped bass moratorium stopped the harvest of these fish all along the coast. To the surprise of those who opposed this action, once we stopped killing rockfish, they made a remarkable comeback.

In 1989, there was a YOY index that was high enough to trigger an end to the moratorium. The addition of Hambrooks Bar to the list of survey sites was the reason for this better-than-average result. It was the only location that had a count above the average, and it was so high, it brought the overall level to a point higher than anything since 1970. While it was never proven, some of us thought politics might have had a hand in the addition of Hambrooks Bar to a list that had remained the same since 1955.

In the mid-1970s, a State-Federal Advisory Committee was formed to examine the plight of the striped bass. I represented Delaware recreational fishermen, and Roy Miller was there from the Division of Fish and Wildlife. We fought an uphill battle for years trying to come up with regulations that would halt the decline, with very limited success. Finally, Congress gave the Atlantic States Fisheries Advisory Commission the power to enforce regulations, but by then many of us felt a moratorium was the only solution. It was Gov. Hughes from Maryland who ordered a complete moratorium, and Delaware followed shortly thereafter. Other states implemented their own moratoriums, and even the Commonwealth of Virginia was dragged kicking and screaming into compliance.

Today the ASMFC has regulations to prevent a repeat of the decline in the 1970s and '80s. Should the YOY fall below average for three years, regulations would be reviewed and strong actions taken. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen.

it says NJ does conduct a YOY survey but those results have not been released. i wonder what those numbers would show?

DarkSkies

02-22-2013, 12:44 PM

From finchaser answering Leadheads comment

Thanks leadhead I follow years of patterns I've logged and put in lots of hours. It was a slow year for bass compared to other years well under my yearly average .Remember I fish mostly everyday when conditions are right and only report catches. Been at this close to 50 years started when limit was 10 fish at 18 inches and seen it all never thought I'd see a decline as fast as this especially with this YOY average at .89 lowest ever.

Fin and I were talking about this......and we knew it was time for another thread.....
(I can imagine as many of you are reading this, you are simultaneously rolling your eyes....:rolleyes:...and thinking "No, not again! When is he gonna get off this bandwagon....I'm sick of hearing it....all this Negativity! Sick of hearing it and I don't want to listen anymore! ") :burn:

If that's the way you feel, fine, but I would like to remind the skeptics out there...that those who do not remember the sins of the past, are doomed to repeat them........:learn:

This is a recent number for the Chesapeake YOY....
Other numbers for the Hudson and Delaware stocks may be different........
The significance, is that this stat is 90% less than when the YOY showing was at it's highest.

Yes you read those figures right, folks.....90% less.......:scared:

If you don't understand or disagree with these stats as they relate to the striped bass population....feel free to bring that up as well...and we'll try our best to answer these questions, by sharing what those who fish every day....are seeing......

Thanks for reading, folks......:HappyWave:

there are full charts to back all this up in thismonths Saltwater Sportsman magazine

Just a refresher of the posts on the first page....seamonkey thanks for posting that chart, :HappyWave: and others for their comments as well.... Remember if you disagree and can back it up with a few years of current data or your logs please feel free to post that.....:thumbsup:

I finally found that article online after Fin mailed it to me...so I'll try to post in it's entirety below, along with some comments....
To me this is more important than how many big fish will be caught this year....grateful to those here who have found the time to post...:fishing:
The article...
http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/species/conservation/bad-news-striped-bass

DarkSkies

02-22-2013, 12:50 PM

Bad News for Striped Bass..from the Saltwater Sportsman Feb 2013.....
http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/species/conservation/bad-news-striped-bass

Bad News for Striped Bass

The past might not be a valid indicator of the future.
By Rip Cunningham (http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/credit/rip-cunningham)

http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/files/imagecache/gallery_image/_images/201302/Striped-Bass-yoy.jpg (http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/files/imagecache/enlarged_image/_images/201302/Striped-Bass-yoy.jpg)
Enlarge (http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/files/imagecache/enlarged_image/_images/201302/Striped-Bass-yoy.jpg)
Bad News for Striped Bass

A very low young-of-the-year index released this past October has many striped bass fans worried that the stock might be declining.

It is my usual rule not to write about the same subject matter two months in a row. However, I am told that rules are made to be broken.

As I write this, there is a sense that the sky is falling concerning one of recreational fishing’s most *important *resources. This is happening at a time when some thought we might have turned a corner and headed in a *sustainable direction.

What is the problem? It is the lowest young-of-the-year index ever recorded for striped bass in Chesapeake Bay for the 59 years this survey has been conducted. This comes a year after the *young-of-the-year index was well above average in 2011.

The disturbingly low index — released in early October, as the figures are every year — appears to be the *continuation of three years of decreasing numbers, all well below the long-term average of this spawning success index.

These were 2008, 2009 and 2010. At the moment, fishery managers do not seem to be very concerned. To those who lived through the striped bass decline in the 1970s and ’80s, this has a very familiar feeling to it.

DarkSkies

03-20-2013, 09:10 AM

^^ Continued.....
Here are some of the actual numbers that provide a sense of what the 2012 index indicates.

1. Remember, these are indices, and they give long-term trends by measuring the number of juvenile striped bass caught in haul seines employed at the same sites year after year.

2. There are also two different indexes.

3. One is a geometric mean and one is an arithmetic mean.

4. Here are some of the arithmetic mean numbers:

In 2012, the index was .89. The long-term average is approximately 11.

The highest ever recorded was 17.61 in 1997.

In 1981 — the second lowest — it was 1.22, and in 1983 it was 1.37.

However, the managers are not concerned and not likely to take any radical action at this time.

__________________________________________________
** It's been said that numbers can be used to manipulate perception with sets of data. This happened when it seemed striped bass numbers were shrinking, after the rebound. I believe at one point scientists added an extra parameter into the data set so it appeared, overall, that the numbers weren't that bad. I don't remember exactly when this was. Maybe Finchaser or some of the other old-timers could fill in the gaps on this.

However, this data referenced above, is calculated the same way, every year.
For such an average, to be so far down, over 90% down, from historical averages, is alarming.

Some may try to say this is only an aberration.
*In statistical terms this is called an outlier, a number that doesn't fit within the standard deviation of historical data.

Some will argue that it is almost statistically impossible for this number to be repeated.
If the numbers for 2013 this year come even remotely close to that, IMO the striped bass stocks are in serious trouble.

It is apparent from above historical trends, that the number was only this low, right when the striped bass stocks had collapsed and the moratorium was enacted in 1982.
Only time will tell what the actual trend interpretation should be.

albiealert

03-20-2013, 10:40 AM

indices,[/B] and they give long-term trends by measuring the number of juvenile striped bass caught in haul seines employed at the same sites year after year.

In 2012, the index was .89. The long-term average is approximately 11.

In 1981 — the second lowest — it was 1.22, and in 1983 it was 1.37.

It is apparent from above historical trends, that the number was only this low, right when the striped bass stocks had collapsed and the moratorium was enacted in 1982.
Only time will tell what the actual trend interpretation should be.

Looks like we are right on the edge of the decline? What is wrong with managers that they are not concerned at this time?

DarkSkies

03-21-2013, 11:46 AM

^^ continued.......

Why is it that they are outwardly comfortable with where the population signs are pointing?
There are a couple of important differences.

In 1982, the female spawning stock biomass (SSB) was approximately 10 million pounds, and today it is in the neighborhood of 100 million pounds. These are the fish that are capable of producing the future generations, and the low number in 1982 was able to start a stock rebuilding that culminated in an SSB of almost 140 million pounds in 2004.

The threshold that marks an overfished status is 80 million pounds.

So, if a population of 10 million pounds can produce an SSB of almost 140 million pounds in 22 years, then the 100 million pound SSB should be able to maintain a population above the 80 million pound threshold. Agreed, but it still feels an awful lot like a repeat of what happened.

___________________
The above paragraph is a key to why fisheries managers are not worried "at this point". Hope that answered your question albiealert, and thanks for asking.
My contention here, is that if the threshhold numbers are off in any way, we could be closer to that 80 million lb overfished status than many scientists realize.

The fishermen on the front lines, the ones who fish several times a week, would IMO be the ones to notice this first.
Some of them have....:learn:

DarkSkies

03-22-2013, 10:17 AM

^^ Continued......

The next question is, why was the spawning success so low when there should have been enough spawning fish to produce at least an above-average amount of juveniles?

The Maryland Department of Natural Resources points a finger at the weather conditions last spring.

It seems that it was too dry in the upper reaches of the Bay with near-record-low flows. This also impacts the temperature of the water, which in our opinion is one of the critical components of larval survival.

It should also be noted that environmental conditions on the spawning grounds were blamed for the downturn in the species in the late 1970s. Back then, it was too much rain that washed a high level of contaminants into the Bay that impacted the survival of the larval fish.

Tongue-in-cheek, one might say we have the Goldilocks syndrome. Not too wet and not too dry, the fish need it just right.

Well, truth be known, the environmental conditions are what determine the success or failure of spawning. The climatic aspects are the ones that we have not yet learned to control, but they are certainly as important as the condition of the SSB.

____________________________
Looking at the above, it becomes clear that is it difficult to make blanket statements like
"The bass are healthier than they have ever been"
"The bass are crashing!"

without looking at the total picture.

I'm willing to consider that the 2012 numbers were an aberration.
If you have similar numbers 2 years in a row, that could indicate a real problem, and parallels to the late 1970's....
I'll be awaiting the new numbers from 2013 to see where this all fits in. :learn:

porgy75

03-22-2013, 12:02 PM

I don't know alot about the numbers. I don't have a lot of experience like you guys do. Taking the bonus tag away would help alot. Its just guys being greedy isn't 2 stripers enough? my .02

DarkSkies

03-22-2013, 01:07 PM

Fecundity Studies and Spawning

I have a bunch of posts here on this but no time to look and post them. Search for fecundity studies....
Basically they talk about the ability of different bass, to lay different amounts of eggs......

1. Egg Production - Many here may probably remember the estimates that a 10 lb bass can have a million eggs.
Estimates that a 40 lb bass.... can have up to 4 million.
Sometimes, it is said that for each 10lbs of body weight above 10 lbs, the bass can produce an extra million eggs.

This can get skewed as the sizes get larger....for example I read once that a 75lb bass can have as many as 10 million eggs.

2. Fecundity -
I'm winging it here as I don't have time to search my previous posts for what I originally said...but from what I remember, the amount of eggs each bass has, is no guarantee she will distribute them.
a. There are times a bass will empty her whole supply, other times when it will be 1/2 or 3/4 of the total
b. Scientists point to a lot of facts why this is happens,
c. water salinity (migratory bass spawn in fresh water, too much salt is no good) water turbidity, stream/river speed and flow, water clarity, water temps, and length of daylight are some of the things said to play a role in the spawning
d. The rest of the factors are up to the individual striped bass. Many of you have caught bass after the spawn that still have eggs, so you have seen this to be true with your own eyes.

So, generally speaking, there is no guarantee that bass will dump all their eggs, each year.
For whatever reason sometimes a fertile bass may not spawn at all, one year, and spawn the next.....

3. Bass sizes and reproduction-
Because of some of the things I mentioned above, a lot of folks have the assumption that the biggest bass are the "best" spawners.....
a. for example, if a 40lb bass has 4 million eggs, even if she only dumps out half her eggs, that's 2 million, twice as much as a 10lb mature bass will dump out.
b. When people make this assumption, they sometimes forget, that the older the bass, the less likely she is to dump all her eggs each time, and more likely she is not to spawn every year.....
c. I hope I don't get anyone to think this is a sexist comment here, but the best analogy I can come up is comparing a 20 year old girl with a 50 year old woman....while (assuming no menopause) both can get pregnant the 50 year old woman is much less likely to get pregnant.......
d. Therefore, it's fair to say there is a definite age range among humans when women are most fertile...

The same realization can be made for striped bass, There is a definite age and size range when female striped bass are most fertile.....
I believe Finchaser, Bucktail Willie , and others I know, have been involved in studies where they looked at this.....and the spawning capability of different bass year classes.

DarkSkies

03-22-2013, 01:10 PM

** Bottom Line...
The most fertile, or fecund, spawning striped bass were generally found to be within the 30-38" range.
When folks talk about killing the breeders, that is the most prolific breeding range, as shown by science.....

This also puts out a very good case for a dedicated slot limit, minimum and maximum, that could be protected, just like they do in Florida with several species. IMO if this were to be done, we wouldn't have to have any conversations on the internet about whether the striped bass are increasing, or decreasing, again....this one step alone could ensure a strong biomass for decades to come.

Thanks for reading,,,,,,,,:HappyWave:

DarkSkies

03-22-2013, 01:11 PM

Monty

03-22-2013, 03:39 PM

I'm willing to consider that the 2012 numbers were an aberration.

:HappyWave:
I'm going to go with that I believe the recreational fisherman are killing to many bass, especially big bass.

cowherder

03-22-2013, 10:26 PM

I don't see why the capt and the mates on the charters should be allowed 3 stripers each to give to the charter. Maybe someone will get pissed at me for saying it but I don't feel its fair.

finchaser

03-23-2013, 12:40 PM

I don't know alot about the numbers. I don't have a lot of experience like you guys do. Taking the bonus tag away would help alot. Its just guys being greedy isn't 2 stripers enough? my .02

Porgy, I think Finchaser might be able to answer this for you as well. He has posted about the advantages and disadvantages many times here.....:HappyWave:

When NJ became a game fish state it eliminated commercial fish,the commercial quota became the bonus fish tag. That was done to prevent the the quota going to another states commercial quota, it was a use it or lose it. As everyone knows once you give up something to the government you never get it back.

As far as the head boats they complained it hurt there out of state business because only NJ anglers could keep 3 fish so boats got a blanket permit to cover everyone on board everyday. they report on an honor system where as beach guys have to send one in to get another. last year the person who does thhead boatat permits quit or was fired and not replaced so the boat had no bonus program. Bottom line even though we have no commercial fishery the fish are still killed and quota stays in NJ. Hope this answers your question.

J Barbosa

03-24-2013, 03:06 PM

When NJ became a game fish state it eliminated commercial fish,the commercial quota became the bonus fish tag. That was done to prevent the the quota going to another states commercial quota, it was a use it or lose it. As everyone knows once you give up something to the government you never get it back.

As far as the head boats they complained it hurt there out of state business because only NJ anglers could keep 3 fish so boats got a blanket permit to cover everyone on board everyday. they report on an honor system where as beach guys have to send one in to get another. last year the person who does thhead boatat permits quit or was fired and not replaced so the boat had no bonus program. Bottom line even though we have no commercial fishery the fish are still killed and quota stays in NJ. Hope this answers your question.

Very informative

porgy75

04-01-2013, 09:55 PM

finchaser

04-02-2013, 12:10 AM

any time

DarkSkies

04-04-2013, 09:58 AM

thank you so much finchaser I did not know that.

Finchaser has forgotten more about fishing, than most people will ever get to know.....we're fortunate to have him share his thoughts (and rants) ;) here.....I'm glad some of ya's are getting to see that.

Continued......

http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/species/conservation/bad-news-striped-bass

"If we believe the climatologists, the weather patterns are going to be more variable in the future, and that means a greater variation from the norm. This is bound to have substantial impact on a variety of species that use estuarine and riverine habitats for spawning. "

*************
This is worth a discussion.
On one hand, we can blame it all on the climate. It's good to have something to blame and as I tried to lay out the points, the real truth is not always so cut and dry...there are many factors that should be looked at.

On the other hand....the YOY surveys have been pretty consistent without the remarkable "outlier" low numbers from 2012. If we don't have too much of a climate variation with this year's YOY, and there are not other factors to account for that, it may indicate something that fisheries managers need to look at.

food for thought.....:learn:

dogfish

04-04-2013, 03:54 PM

This is worth a discussion.
On one hand, we can blame it all on the climate.

On the other hand I wish you would blame it on the seals. Damn things are more numerous here than in any year I have been fishing. I have been following the reports of the shark taggers hoping that the numbers of GWS will increase around the Cape. We need to do something to keep the seal population down. PETA be damned.

finchaser

04-04-2013, 06:18 PM

we need great whites or SPEEDY

bababooey

04-04-2013, 06:29 PM

we need great whites or SPEEDY

Don't know what the dude looks like, finchaser. What creature would you say speedy resembles most?:laugh: :HappyWave:
16793

16794

finchaser

04-04-2013, 11:22 PM

first one with a gun

DarkSkies

04-05-2013, 10:29 AM

ledhead36

04-05-2013, 01:06 PM

:rolleyes: tough crowd here. Didn't you say speedy has a gun? Shotgun or automatic? Maybe not a good idea to mess with him.

bababooey

04-05-2013, 04:20 PM

first one with a gun

As long as he doesn't look like a mermaid it's all good.:)

speedy

04-06-2013, 01:27 AM

Don't know what the dude looks like, finchaser. What creature would you say speedy resembles most?:laugh: :HappyWave:
16793

16794 thanks guys art work sucks lol

speedy

04-06-2013, 01:28 AM

:rolleyes: tough crowd here. Didn't you say speedy has a gun? Shotgun or automatic? Maybe not a good idea to mess with him. all the kinds lol

Monty

04-06-2013, 08:16 AM

I would say it's a combo...the bottom part of the whale looks like Speedy swimming off the jetties....his face looks a little like the shark..:laugh: :HappyWave:..wonder what Surfstix and Monty think?

I would say not to mess with Speedy. You need to be a little :kooky: :kooky: :kooky: :kooky:.
Listen to the advice of ledhead, he knows things :HappyWave:

DarkSkies

04-06-2013, 09:51 AM

speedy

04-06-2013, 10:24 AM

^If you mess with Speedy's family he will tear ya apart, feed ya to the neighborhood pit bulls.:kicknuts: :lynchmob: :bonk: .:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

But Speedy's getting old.....at one time he was a great shot, now he's so slow....:rolleyes:
I go down there at night after fishin, put insulting messages on his windshield....poking the bear......:moon:...trying to help the old fart with some target practice...and he still can't hit the side of a barn with those high powered rifles of his......:p :HappyWave:i kep telling u the gay brothers are going to be looking for u i take ur notes and put them on the cars at 8th ave . and add ur cell# and a picture of u under the pic it states for agreat time call dark the twinky boy ...:2flip::2flip::beatin::2flip:

DarkSkies

04-06-2013, 11:33 AM

^I knew I could get a rise out of ya if I said that, Speedy you old fart. :moon: :ROFLMAO :clapping: :thumbsup:
Have a great day, bro....did ya swim your plugs yet today?.......:fishing:

Some nicer fish have moved in...get ready......:HappyWave:

ledhead36

04-06-2013, 12:45 PM

I would say not to mess with Speedy. You need to be a little :kooky: :kooky: :kooky: :kooky:.
Listen to the advice of ledhead, he knows things :HappyWave:

Thanks. Some days i do.:laugh: :HappyWave:

bababooey

04-06-2013, 03:12 PM

thanks guys art work sucks lol

It took me 7 1/2 minutes to search for those on the internet and then download them. I am highly offended.:2flip: :laugh:

speedy

04-07-2013, 09:59 AM

It took me 7 1/2 minutes to search for those on the internet and then download them. I am highly offended.:2flip: :laugh:nice ..:kicknuts::kicknuts:

storminsteve

04-07-2013, 11:08 AM

It took me 7 1/2 minutes to search for those on the internet and then download them. I am highly offended.:2flip: :laugh:

I thought they were funny too. I saw a pic speedy posted on here at one time and I think the resemblance is a stretch. Wouldn't want to meet the guy in a dark alley, gun or no gun. He does look a little :kooky:. Hope you aren't offended speedy don't want you coming after me!:HappyWave:

DarkSkies

04-12-2013, 06:47 PM

You mooks really hijacked the hell out of this thread, didn't ya's....:kooky: :rolleyes:

that's ok, we had our fun and laughs....
Now back on topic please.....thanks.....:HappyWave:

**************
" While managers might have reason to believe that they have enough margin to compensate for unforeseen events, we are concerned that they are looking at past events in an effort to predict a very different future. That simply means there is a greater chance for error as species adapt to an increasingly variable environment."

This is a good statement. To me things are changing. I have seen a gradual decline in bass over the last 8 years. Where it is most noticable to me, is in the spawning areas.

In the Chesapeake, Delaware, and Hudson, the 3 main brood-stocks....there are now more than a few guys, all experienced anglers with decades under their belts, saying that they see a decline in today, from what they remember and have logged from just a few years back.

There was a recent fisheries management meeting where the managers agreed it might be a possibility that bass are in a decline (overfishing is occurring) but they were not willing to say bass are overfished.

This key difference has been explained in several threads here. Do a search and you will find it.
Finchaser also has some further knowledge. He can go into detail if he wants....

The bottom line is we will have to wait for the 2013 YOY Sampling/Data to see if that is enough scientific evidence for them to say overfishing claims are accurate.

Stay tuned.....

Thanks for reading, folks.....

buckethead

09-21-2013, 12:48 PM

This is a good statement. To me things are changing. I have seen a gradual decline in bass over the last 8 years. Where it is most noticable to me, is in the spawning areas.

In the Chesapeake, Delaware, and Hudson, the 3 main brood-stocks....there are now more than a few guys, all experienced anglers with decades under their belts, saying that they see a decline in today, from what they remember and have logged from just a few years back.

There was a recent fisheries management meeting where the managers agreed it might be a possibility that bass are in a decline (overfishing is occurring) but they were not willing to say bass are overfished.

Finchaser also has some further knowledge. He can go into detail if he wants....

The bottom line is we will have to wait for the 2013 YOY Sampling/Data to see if that is enough scientific evidence for them to say overfishing claims are accurate.

Some bad news Dark.
The latest NOAA assessment was published. They say striped bass are not being overfished nor is overfishing occurring. Don't know if you saw this yet but maybe you can explain when you get a chance. This is distressing. What's it going to take for them to see the trees in the forest? :huh:

NOAA paper
http://nefsc.noaa.gov/publications/crd/crd1314/

striped bass part
http://nefsc.noaa.gov/publications/crd/crd1314/partb.pdf

Here is part of it. Maybe you or someone else here can outline the rest. It's not good news no matter how you look at it.

B. ATLANTIC STRIPED BASS ASSESSMENT SUMMARY FOR 2013State of the Stock:

In 2012, the Atlantic striped bass stock was not overfished or experiencing overfishingrelative to the new reference points from the 2013 SAW/SARC57 (Figure B1-B3). Femalespawning stock biomass (SSB) was estimated at 61.5 thousand mt (136 million lbs), above the
SSB threshold of 57,904 mt, but below the SSB target of 72,380 mt.

buckethead

09-21-2013, 01:13 PM

I'll help out with part of the analysis. In 2011 the ASMFC was saying there was overfishing of striped bass. They clearly pointed to declines in reported catches for the preceding 3 years. 2012 showed the same trend in declining catches. It appears from the charts that the decline continues into 2013 though all the numbers aren't in yet. The biggest problem I can see is that what the ASMFC is saying, is on a totally different wavelength from NOAA's assessment.
The thread for the ASMFC reports.
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7594-Striped-bass-reductions-ASMFC-to-reduce-striped-bass-catches-across-the-board

Can anyone else make sense out of this?

DarkSkies

09-21-2013, 05:33 PM

Thanks for the thoughts Bucket. I realize you fished before and moratorium and like many of the old timers here are not optimistic.
When I get a chance I'll try to go over the PDF and lay it out here in language that is easier to understand.

Fin and I were talking about this the other day.
Based on a quick look, it's not good.

nitestrikes

11-06-2013, 02:13 AM

ds don't know if you saw this or not it is the latest piece by **** Russell:

http://mvgazette.com/news/2013/10/31/conservation-essential-save-striper?k=vg52798f3978bba&r=1
Conservation Is Essential to Save the Striper
**** Russell

Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 3:49pm
4 Comments (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/#comments)

The same week the 68th annual Vineyard derby came to a close, the Maryland Department of Natural Resources announced results of its 58th annual young of the year survey of striped bass in the Chesapeake Bay. This is the annual measure of spawning success in the region where the great majority of the Atlantic coast stripers come from.

A year ago the average number counted in every seine haul was a dismal 0.9, the lowest ever recorded. In 2013, the number was up somewhat to 5.8, but still well below the long-term average of 11.7. Indeed, five of the past six years have seen below-par figures.

?We see that the legal-sized striped bass will be sparse in the next few years,? a Massachusetts fisheries official told the Gazette. (It takes six years for a striped bass to reach 28 inches, at which size the state?s recreational fishermen are allowed to keep two fish a day). Derby fishermen have simultaneously witnessed a substantial decline in the bigger fish. This year?s largest, of 487 striped bass weighed in by a record 3,160 entrants, were 39.94 pounds from a boat and 34.64 pounds from shore. The once-common 50-pound fish are becoming a distant memory.

When you consider that most males don?t migrate and so more than 99 per cent of wild stripers harvested commercially coastwide are females, fewer large, egg-laden spawning fish can only add up to poorer reproduction. Especially when you factor in what?s happening to the time-honored food of choice for the bass, the Atlantic menhaden.

The population of these little baitfish that survives their first year is now at less than 10 per cent of historic levels, ?a catastrophic decline,? as conservation author H. Bruce Franklin says. Yet more menhaden continue to be caught, by weight, than anything else along the Eastern seaboard. The fleet of a single company, Omega Protein, is pulling out over 410 million pounds a year from the Chesapeake, to be ground up into fertilizer, pet food, feed for farm animals and farm-raised fish, and fish oil dietary supplements for humans.

Late last year, the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission (ASMFC) voted for a 20 per cent reduction in Omega?s menhaden harvest. The corporation?s response? Send two more vessels, each capable of holding about a million metric tons of menhaden, to Reedville, Va. Meanwhile, striped bass in the Chesapeake continue to show signs of stress, malnutrition, and disease ? well over 75 per cent of the bay?s resident stripers are affected by mycobacteriosis, an infectious disease that ultimately proves fatal.

The situation for Island and Cape fishermen, especially along the flats and the beaches, is grim. A decade ago shallow water locations in late spring on Cape Cod Bay customarily saw hundreds of stripers daily; now it?s 30 to 40 fish, sometimes half that. Some have seen more stripers offshore, maybe due to lack of bait inshore. Some are blaming an increased population of seals that feed on the bass. Some say higher-than-normal water temperatures are the culprit. Many now say that all those reasons are an excuse for business as usual.

Last March, more than 800 Massachusetts fishermen signed a petition calling for a 50 per cent reduction of commercial and recreational fishing for striped bass. One was Cooper Gilkes, a bait and tackle shop owner from Edgartown. ?We?re waiting way too long to take action,? Coop told me recently, ?while back-sliding to where we were in the 80s. The statistics all show that; it doesn?t take a rocket scientist. We?re working on one big pod of fish out there off Chatham and, if we keep hammering it, sooner or later that?s gonna be gone. I don?t see why the state can?t get it together and do something.?

Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries director Paul Diodati said it was impossible to get the petition implemented in time for the 2013 season. He added: ?Unilateral action in Massachusetts might not be sensible. Whatever conservation we are trying to take, it might be compromised by the fisheries elsewhere.? That seems more than wishy-washy, when you recall that Massachusetts was in the forefront with stronger regulations during the striper population crash of the early 1980s and more recently led the charge toward better ecosystem-based management of menhaden.

?There is one solution . . . Stop killing the breeders,? longtime fisherman and conservationist Lou Taborey wrote recently. ?Both recreational and commercial fishermen target larger fish because regulations require that practice. A slot limit similar to what the state of Florida has for most of its game fish would stop the killing of females.? Taborey points out that a one-fish-a-day, 22-to-26-inch slot limit would be ideal. If stripers from 28 to 48 inches were protected, that would mean at least eight to 10 years of freedom to spawn.

The commercial interests of course would oppose this.
Currently, on three summer weekdays, some 2,500 commercially-licensed Massachusetts fishermen are authorized to each catch 30 stripers a day at 34 inches or longer (and five fish on Sundays). During this summer?s season, it only took three weeks to take the allotted quota of 997,869 pounds. Yet more than 600,000 people fish recreationally for stripers in Massachusetts, whose reported landings have fallen by nearly 75 per cent since 2006.

Do the math, even if you want to just think in economic terms.

At the ASMFC?s striped bass board meeting this week in Georgia, there was consensus that the management plan needs to be changed to provide more conservation.

Mr. Diodati from Massachusetts proposed reducing the recreational bag limit to one fish (28 inches) a day, while also cutting about 35 per cent of the coastal commercial quota. But his motion failed to sway the other commissioners, and everything got postponed for another year. For the sake of the most majestic inshore fish in our waters, it?s time to raise cain before it?s too late.

**** Russell is a summer Vineyard fisherman, ocean activist and author of Striper Wars: An American Fish Story (Island Press, 2005).

DarkSkies

11-19-2013, 09:46 AM

^^ Thank you for posting that nitestrikes. It's very sobering when you look at it in black and white. Even more sobering when you see it when you are out there fishing regularly, as you and some of the other old timers here are, and have mentioned.....

DarkSkies

11-19-2013, 09:59 AM

Striped Bass Year Classes - Is there a noticable difference out there in the last 5-8 years?

Fin and I were having this conversation yesterday.
In want to give him the credit he deserves...he has been at it so long, along with some of the old salts he fishes with, that they are often able to spot trends before the rest of us.....

I have noticed a downward decline in my catches, sizes, and opportunities in the last 5-8 years. This has forced me to travel all over the Coast to get the same fish that I used to catch, just 40 minutes from my house....

Some recent comments by anglers here....

The good news is the bad news
all the fish were over 12 lbs,

where are the shorts?
not a good sign,
I seen this with weakies they kept getting bigger before vanishing.
If the motherload of cookie cutter bass 25-27" doesnt come in soon I am concerned.

...scored another 29 bass only 1 short with 5 over 20 pounds largest 23 and 24 pounds the rest between 10 and 19 pound range. All but 2 were released.

Like shark heart said there are no small fish very :scared:.

All rats on the beach in NY w/ very few keepers.Nice fish SH.And at the rate things are going you had a good day Fin.

Fished ALOT of hours this weekend with very poor results!!
While out there i was thinking of falls past in this spot, and like you guys mentioned above, i used to go here and catch short after short on a day like today the fish would be in the 24-27in and there were alot of them then..

This year i have not see ANY small fish AT ALL!! The large majority of fish have all been 28 or better..Not a good sign at all its getting me a bit worried about the next few years doesnt look good! No small fish and all the big gurls are getting taking:scared:....

** Some of ya's have made some very valid points about the sizes and quantity of bass we are seeing, more on that in another thread...

I'm posting these insightful comments as a basis for discussion and raising awareness. At this point I have friends and contacts all over the coast, I, or someone else, can point to areas where short bass are in abundance....
The LI sound,
Some SJ back bays... (but even in the last 2 weeks those numbers have thinned out)
Some NNJ estuaries....the Hackensack River system dumping into Newark Bay, as just one example...

The point here, is that even though some may argue that short fish are around, the folks posting here, fishing regularly, have made similar comments....

The last trip out, with the exception of a 15 minute window of feeding activity, I found dead water all over....
This is not historically normal for me....I have always been able to manage a few small fish here and there.......

**The biggest issue here, is why all of these comments all of a sudden?
(to be fair, I tracked back to posts from last year and the year before, and we had other members here echoing the same comments as well)...I don't want to focus too much last year because of Sandy...and there were a lot of short fish - 100,000+, that were accidentally released from a Hudson River fish farm during the storm...which caused many fellow anglers to report seeing smaller fish....and some incorrectly attributing this to the health of the Hudson Striped bass stocks....

What does this indicate?

DarkSkies

11-19-2013, 10:31 AM

The following thoughts, courtesy of a brainstorming session Fin and I had yesterday....we were trying to qualify our observations, and see what generalizations we could make from them....

What I, and some others are seeing, are great disparities in year classes of striped bass.....

I have simplified this to make it easier for many of the new guys to understand...please realize that there is a possibility that some of the following statements may be off by a bit......and I welcome different opinions...but this is what we are seeing, as a collective of anglers who fish the salt regularly.....
(this includes quite a few private boaters who have been running boats since the days of the cartoppers launching at Monmouth Beach.....)

The 2 areas most noticable to us, are the largest and smallest fish.....

1. Fish 10-28", seem to be less in abundance....
A. as of 10 years ago, many jetties, bridges, rivers, bulkheads, backs of inlets, sedge banks, and back bay areas, were infested with fish this size. The shallow surf of the points of the ocean beaches would always hold a few here and there.....that is not the case in 2013, nor was it the case in 2011, during most of the fall
(2011 most of the small and larger fish that showed up at Island Beach showed up Thanksgiving weekend...and the northern jetties, that always hold a few fish....had limited amounts....until late fall
B. These fish correlate with the year classes 1-8, see chart below.

2. Fish 45" and better seem to be less in abundance....these are the fish 35# and up......
A. I know there are larger fish out there, and being caught....my point here, is that catches of bigger bass are less common than they were 5 years ago.....we can all point to Greg Myerson's record bass and say that represents the larger classes....but does it?,,,,it's just one fish........
If you look at the catches being reported on Party and Charter Boats and media, you will see that a large portion of the bass this Fall, are over 8#, and under 25....
B. These fish correlate with the year classes 15-20.

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?9196-Fish-size-charts

DarkSkies

11-19-2013, 10:33 AM

** Again, this is an oversimplification for discussion purposes....I'm not a scientist, but I and others I discuss these things with, spend more time on the water than many scientists do.....and this is what we are seeing......we have noticed a definite downward trend in these 2 ends of the striped bass population.

As always, I invite different opinions here. There are many similarities between what we are seeing here, and the conditions that existed right before the last collapse of the bass stocks, and the moratorium.

I feel that these discussions are vital.,,,,,there are too many Capts out there boasting "Best fishing that has ever been" "Striped bass are healthier than ever"....and statements like that, are just not accurate....based on what I and others are seeing out there.....

** What does this indicate?
Would love to hear what the rest of ya's think.....:HappyWave:

storminsteve

11-19-2013, 10:50 AM

You shouldn't worry about apologizing for simplifying things DS. Hell, I hate to read those fisheries announcements and even the asmfc stuff. Like war and peace. It's better to try to break it down that way more fishermen will understand. Thanks for the thoughts finchaser and dark. I have seen very few small fish this year as well. Even at the Hook they used to be crawling all over. Now they are not.

7deadlyplugs

11-19-2013, 12:20 PM

I feel that these discussions are vital.,,,,,there are too many Capts out there boasting "Best fishing that has ever been" "Striped bass are healthier than ever"....and statements like that, are just not accurate....based on what I and others are seeing out there.....

** What does this indicate?
Would love to hear what the rest of ya's think.....:HappyWave:

Well in captree it was epic. Every day there was not one person who didnt limit out. The end of the road is they killed so many of the bass because they were tight. Thousands a day if you take all the LI boats together. How much fishing pressure can these bass take?
I think there are less big bass because everyone needs them for a trophy. my .02

Monty

11-19-2013, 01:24 PM

Well in captree it was epic. Every day there was not one person who didnt limit out. The end of the road is they killed so many of the bass because they were tight. Thousands a day if you take all the LI boats together. How much fishing pressure can these bass take?
I think there are less big bass because everyone needs them for a trophy. my .02

They seemed to really put a hurting on the bass up there. Knowing what the shape the fishery is in and then seeing all those dead breeders was very depressing. An incredible waste. Instead of taking some type of action this past year the ASMFC did nothing and continues to do nothing. Well we have this spring to look forward to as the meat men of jersey continue their quest to wipe out the bass on their way to spawn in the Hudson. Lots of skill required for that kill. One boat finds them and then notify their clueless buddies where to "limit out".
RIP breeders.

DarkSkies

11-20-2013, 09:41 AM

Striped Bass Year Classes - Is there a noticable difference out there in the last 5-8 years?
I have noticed a downward decline in my catches, sizes, and opportunities in the last 5-8 years. This has forced me to travel all over the Coast to get the same fish that I used to catch, just 40 minutes from my house....

The good news is the bad news
all the fish were over 12 lbs,

where are the shorts?
not a good sign,
I seen this with weakies they kept getting bigger before vanishing.
If the motherload of cookie cutter bass 25-27" doesnt come in soon I am concerned.

...scored another 29 bass only 1 short with 5 over 20 pounds largest 23 and 24 pounds the rest between 10 and 19 pound range. All but 2 were released.
Like shark heart said there are no small fish very :scared:.

All rats on the beach in NY w/ very few keepers.Nice fish SH.And at the rate things are going you had a good day Fin.

Fished ALOT of hours this weekend with very poor results!!
While out there i was thinking of falls past in this spot, and like you guys mentioned above, i used to go here and catch short after short on a day like today the fish would be in the 24-27in and there were alot of them then..

This year i have not see ANY small fish AT ALL!! The large majority of fish have all been 28 or better..Not a good sign at all its getting me a bit worried about the next few years doesnt look good! No small fish and all the big gurls are getting taking:scared:....

As indicated, the above are only a few of the comments I have been hearing. I'm having more and more conversations with anglers asking where the smaller bass are, they are noticing they are missing from many of their local areas...

The following thoughts, courtesy of a brainstorming session Fin and I had yesterday....we were trying to qualify our observations, and see what generalizations we could make from them....

The 2 areas most noticable to us, are the largest and smallest fish.....

1. Fish 10-28", seem to be less in abundance....
A. as of 10 years ago, many jetties, bridges, rivers, bulkheads, backs of inlets, sedge banks, and back bay areas, were infested with fish this size. The shallow surf of the points of the ocean beaches would always hold a few here and there.....that is not the case in 2013, nor was it the case in 2011, during most of the fall
(2011 most of the small and larger fish that showed up at Island Beach showed up Thanksgiving weekend...and the northern jetties, that always hold a few fish....had limited amounts....until late fall
B. These fish correlate with the year classes 1-8, see chart below.
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?9196-Fish-size-charts

Instead of taking some type of action this past year the ASMFC did nothing and continues to do nothing. .

This is a critical point you made, Monty..:thumbsup:...the ASMFC continues to do nothing....
The most current promise of a policy change is for 2015...that's almost 2 years down the road....by then it will be too late....
I've talked to some of ya's about the "overfishing and overfished" definitions......

Here's something that many folks may not realize...
The latest data puts the SSB at somewhere around 98million lbs....As I understand it, these are the female bass capable of spawning.
When the number gets to 97, they will be mandated to admit that overfishing is occurring........that's only 1 MM lbs less....and if there is an error in the sampling data...overfishing could be occurring right now....

But we will have to wait to 2015, to officially see a policy change.....
As Monty and others point out....that will be way late in the game.....and who knows if it will be enough at that point, to reverse the trend without further drastic changes in harvest limits.....

DarkSkies

11-20-2013, 09:43 AM

** Food for thought....
1. I have noticed my size and numbers observations consistently trending downward in the last 5-8 years.....
2. The YOY stats (with the exception of 2012) have been trending downward for the last 5-8 years.
3. Other fishermen are now reporting less short striped bass around (takes an average of 8 years to grow to maturity)
4. Can anyone see the correlation here? http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/icons/icon3.png

Would welcome other thoughts on this as well.....thanks for reading....:HappyWave:

clamchucker

11-20-2013, 10:35 AM

DarkSkies

11-28-2013, 10:04 AM

Lately a lot of ya's have seen my incessant posting about the striped bass biomass, the corroborated decline, and poor YOY stats.......
Because there is so much misinformation out there, I have been involved in intense discussions with commercial fishermen, and recs as well, who claim there is nothing wrong with striped bass populations....

What I have found, is there are various hidden agendas for saying that, and these discussions sometimes get ugly.

In the off season, I will probably getting some more folks highly irritated with me....but this is too important, it goes beyond me, and what folks think of me......

It's about the future of the striped bass fishery, and whether or not our children will be able to fish for them, as we do today...

You will see my name more and more on different internet forums.....I cannot stand by and let folks post the mis-information about how healthy the SB fishery is right now....because there is always a good chance others will believe them.....

It's time for some reality and real facts to enter these discussions....
To me, that's more important than whether someone "likes" me, or not.....
Overall, I feel we are probably headed for some sort of short or abbreviated moratorium....with the ASMFC probably not acting until 2015, it may be too late by then......

**The striped bass spawning biomass (SSB) is now 1 Million lbs from the ASMFC being forced to declare that overfishing is occurring.......I'm going to try the best I can to continue raising awareness of this, whether some folks are happy with that....or not.......:HappyWave:

Thanks as always, for reading......

DarkSkies

11-28-2013, 10:09 AM

darkskies the conditions today are exactly as they existed before the moratorium with clusters of bigger fish and many areas of no fish. I feel there are no solutions except to shut the fishery down. Folks are not listeninig. The asmfc is politically controlled and commercially influenced. I am sorry to sound negative but there is not enough support in the angling community to get things done. Folks don't rally around a cause like they did decades ago.

It pains me to hear you feel that way clamchucker. Unfortunately quite a few of the veteran fishermen your age I know have said the same thing. I am trying to remain optimistic but in the end I feel you may be right.

I'm still going to try to hope for the best, and continue to try to promote awareness. Thanks as always for your insightful contributions.

surferman

11-28-2013, 01:44 PM

"Let's kill as many as we can before we have to save them."

I just read this. Can you or any one else explain to me why if stripers are in trouble they are saying its ok to kill more of them?:don't know why:

Maryland DNR Drops a Thanksgiving Turkey (http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/2013/11/27/maryland-dnr-drops-a-thanksgiving-turkey/)

Category: Fishing Reports (http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/category/reports/)

http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/young-300x200.jpg (http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/young.jpg)

"Let's kill as many as we can before we have to save them." That seems to be the attitude of the Maryland Department of Natural Resources. Tuesday, just before closing for a five day Thanksgiving weekend, DNR fisheries dropped a turkey on recreational striped bass anglers by announcing a 14% increase in harvest in the Chesapeake Bay. At a time when striper stocks are steeply declining and states up and down the Atlantic seaboard face impending cuts mandated by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission (ASMFC), Maryland & Virginia are grabbing more fish. Here?s a link to the press release and a quote:

Determination of the Available 2014 Chesapeake Bay Commercial Striped Bass Quota (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/commercial/stripedbass/pdf/2014quota.pdf)
For 2014, it was decided that fishermen could safely harvest 8,652,528 pounds of Striped Bass without detriment to the Bay population. The previous year?s quota was 7,589,937 pounds and for the first time in many years the quota has been increased in the Bay. This increase of approximately 14% is attributed to a large number of fish from the 2011 year class (fish that hatch and enter into the population in a given year) which are just now reaching the legal minimum size of 18 inches.

I hope you find that as unbelievable as I do. I've tried to keep fisheries politics out of this blog lately because I want to concentrate on the fun parts of our sport, but when something this egregious comes out, I think it's important to spread the news and let our fisheries managers know just how pissed off recreational anglers can be.
http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/poaching-300x225.jpg (http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/poaching.jpg)

At a meeting in Georgia last month, commissioners on the ASMFC's Striped Bass Management Board formally acknowleged problems with the stock (http://www.asmfc.org/uploads/file/pr49StripedBassBenchmarkAssmt.pdf) and started the process to reduce fishing. Unfortunately for the fish, changes from the ASMFC take a long time. Amendments were drafted and a public comment period was scheduled with the goal of implementing harvest reductions in 2015.

Recreational anglers up and down the coast who are seeing fewer and fewer fish are disappointed that action wasn't taken right away, but most of us are resolved to participate in the change process in hopes of an even more conservative approach next year. In the mean time, concerned anglers and conservation-oriented fishing organizations are calling for voluntary harvest restrictions. Simply put, we want to save as many fish as we can until the federal government formalizes mandatory reductions. Here?s an editorial in Forbes Magazine from Monte Burke (https://www.facebook.com/MonteBurkeWriter?directed_target_id=0) calling for voluntary cuts: Time For Recreational Anglers to Voluntarily Limit Their Catch (http://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2013/11/19/with-the-striped-bass-in-trouble-its-time-for-recreational-anglers-to-drastically-limit-their-catch/).

Enter Maryland DNR. Now, you'd think that an organization charged to protect striped bass in the state where almost all of them are born and grow up would also consider reductions, wouldn't you? Maybe even take action ahead of ASMFC restrictions? You know, a watch-out-for-the-stock-that-just-happens-to-be-the-state-fish, kind of decision? Nope. Instead, they delivered a square slap in the face to conservation minded fishermen in Maryland and all over the East Coast by increasing harvest by over a million, that?s right a million pounds, bay-wide.

http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/yoy-graph-20131-300x209.jpg (http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/yoy-graph-20131.jpg)

Here's their thinking as I understand it: We've had one good spawning year for stripers out of the last six. That was 2011. Those fish are just now growing to be 18-inches long, the lower limit for harvest in Maryland. Since there will be more legal fish in the Bay, they think it?s okay to kill more, especially since we usually come in below the quota the ASMFC currently sets for the state. Never-mind that once new ASMFC standards are adopted, surveys will show that striped bass have been overfished six out of the past nine years, or that overfishing is likely to occur in 2014. The attitude in Maryland seems to be that we should kill as many fish as we can before they grow up and leave the Chesapeake Bay, and before the ASMFC forces reductions.

Did I say I was pissed? I hope you are too. I believe the 2011 year class is the future of the striped bass fishery. It's the fish you and I will be trying to catch for the rest of our lives. This 14% increase isn?t likely to change because it?s already been announced and commercial quotas are set for Maryland, Virginia, and the Potomac River. One thing should change though, and that's the attitude of Maryland fishing managers. The days of managing for maximum harvest have to end. We can't just keep killing fish simply because they're here in the Bay and their heads are finally big enough to get stuck in a gill net.

Please talk to everyone you can - your friends, your neighbors, your co-workers, your pastor, and especially your politicians to make sure they know about the great striped bass grab of 2014. Share on social media and do everything you can to spread the disheartening news. You can bet that DNR managers will be working all this very long holiday weekend to clean up their justifications and polish their excuses. Speaking of polishing, maybe this isn't a turkey after all but something that smells a lot worse. You can't polish a turd, and this decision stinks.

http://www.chesapeakelighttackle.com/2013/11/27/maryland-dnr-drops-a-thanksgiving-turkey/

basshunter

11-28-2013, 02:23 PM

I cannot stand by and let folks post the mis-information about how healthy the SB fishery is right now....because there is always a good chance others will believe them.....

It's time for some reality and real facts to enter these discussions....
To me, that's more important than whether someone "likes" me, or not.....
Overall, I feel we are probably headed for some sort of short or abbreviated moratorium....with the ASMFC probably not acting until 2015, it may be too late by then......

**The striped bass spawning biomass (SSB) is now 1 Million lbs from the ASMFC being forced to declare that overfishing is occurring.......I'm going to try the best I can to continue raising awareness of this, whether some folks are happy with that....or not.......:HappyWave:
.

darkskys how can you possibly correct them when there are so many? by the way I applaud your efforts though I am not sure how many will listen. Keep up thegood work. the misinformation you are talking about goes on every day. Some examples:

the government says its fine.... the ocean never saw so many bass..... WHATS THE PROBLEM !!!

The stocks of striped bass dramatically improved when the Gov stopped the commercial fishing for them. Its not the rod and reel recreational guys that decimate them. I see just as good if not better striper fishing right now than I did 10 years ago. These fish are in no way endangered in NJ..... Maybe we should kill more stripers since its a common theory that stripers are feeding on weakfish and making their stocks lower than years past.

these guys just don't get it. The commerical industry is what will kill this fishery not the recreational guys. I have been fishing these waters since the 70's and have seen highs and lows and right now we are on a high and I may not know everything but I can tell 100% it will not deplete the striped bass stocks by keeping a couple bass! These guys need to get a life or go hug a tree!

Monty

11-28-2013, 09:54 PM

This is just an idea, likely many reasons it will not happen. It's also based on perceptions I have on the RFA, please correct me if I am wrong. I don't know of any organizations that have the influence as the RFA has. I also think the RFA currently has no interest in anything like this at this time because of where they get their support ($$) from. So here it goes:
I think the Recreation Fishing Alliance is the largest organization that is supposedly representing the recreational fisherman. I do believe they are involved in lobbying. If they would take a stand and declare that based on fisherman's opinions and realistic data the Striped Bass Biomass is in trouble and immediate action needs to be taken to preserve and increase the population to support recreational fishing (individuals, charter boats and party boats). That regulations need to be one bass per person 36" or larger and that the bonus tags are eliminated. That the commercial quota is to either be eliminated or reduced 75%, something like this. By the RFA stating fishing pressure (recreational and commercial) along with the pollution in the Chesapeake Bay has the striped bass population in severe trouble I feel there is a possibility a large amount of the recreational fisherman will rally around and provide support.
If something is going to be done to curtail the downward spiral of the striped bass biomass an organization that has some political power/voice needs to get involved in a big way. Major press releases, calling out the ASMFC for steering this striped bass population towards another moratorium, getting political support.
Something like this will need to happen....soon, to save us from having a very limited amount of Striped Bass to fish for.
Just my .02 after a huge turkey meal.

DarkSkies

12-06-2013, 01:16 PM

darkskys how can you possibly correct them when there are so many? by the way I applaud your efforts though I am not sure how many will listen. Keep up thegood work. the misinformation you are talking about goes on every day. Some examples:

Basshunter sorry for the delay in responding. I have been trying to get a lot of projects done I haven't been able to do in a while, and busy with other committments.
I thank you for taking the time to C&P the comments. I am not familiar with the context of the conversation they came from so I don't want to judge the folks who made the comments.

Rather than address them all, it seems there are several mis-interpretations evident here......I'll try to address them one by one....and hopefully this way, folks reading will not see this as criticism of others, but some broad based observations I have come to see, about when and why folks can easily mis-interpret what they see out there.........

1. The commercial industry will kill this fishery.
This is a common statement, repeated over and over throughout the internet.

What are some of the reasons folks have this interpretation?

A. They see videos of commercial bycatch, dead striped bass, laying by the thousands on the ocean surface after gillnetters have thrown them back dead.

B. They see videos of commercial beach netting operations off of Hatteras, which is a limited and specific fishery every year....

C. nonetheless, these types of videos induce horror and anger among fishermen as they come to believe that this is what is causing the real problems when bass fishing seems to decline in an area.

**We react to these videos, IMO, because they naturally provoke an emotional response.....no one likes to see dead bass floating on the water, a complete waste of the resource....

D. Poaching/Overlimit catches of striped bass by Commercial netters.....
It's no secret commercial netters are involved in many illegal poaching operations every year....a Google search will reveal dozens of prosecutions of watermen from VA to RI, being caught with bass they are not allowed to have.

This also will produce an emotional reaction, causing some of us to think that the commercials are killing thousands of unpermitted bass....and they are......

Is that where the biggest numbers of dead bass comes from?

**The Sum Total....of the harvest, illegal and legal, by the Commercials, is less than what we are now taking from the Recreational side...
If (and when) another moratorium is declared, fault will rest squarely on the shoulders of us, the Recreational fishermen.

DarkSkies

12-06-2013, 01:31 PM

2. "If I can see bass in front of me, by the thousands, then they are not in danger!"

This is a common mis-perception by charter, private boat, and party boat anglers who go out amidst thousands of feeding bass, get their limit quickly, and honestly cannot understand what these other "whiners" mean when they claim striped bass are overfished.

In the past I have come down hard on folks making statements like this....it has usually ended in arguments.....
In looking back, over when and why we argue, I have developed a less confrontational outlook.......

A. Some of these folks, fishing amidst thousands of feeding fish, do not realize they are in the "middle" of the action.

B. They (incorrectly) assume that the action they witness, is the same up and down the coast (as it was 8-15 years ago) without wanting to understand what they are seeing may be limited to a specific area.

C. They don't have much of an understanding of Striped bass migration, or how long it takes a bass to develop to legal size (in most cases 6-7 years)

D. When they see folks ranting on the internet about there being less bass, they don't realize that most of the folks who feel that way, are fishing on the edges...or fish quite often....
The Biomass is contracting...but they cannot see it, fishing in the middle.

E. When the fishery is healthy, fish will be in the middle, as well as the edges.....there will be good representations of all the year classes through the range of catching and harvesting....
When the fishery is not healthy (like it is now), you will start to see it first, on the edges
(do a Google search for
"m&m theory" striped bass
to learn more about this.)

**Many fishermen, if they are catching, just don't want to take the effort to get that involved in thinking about bass....so to them, as long as they are catching, the fishery is healthy.....

DarkSkies

12-06-2013, 02:00 PM

3. With all the bass we saw in front of us today, there is no way rod and reel fishermen could put a dent in the striped bass fishery!

Another common mis-conception.
A good friend got into an intense argument in a tackle shop with a party boat mate who made that statement. His assessment was there are more bass than ever before.....followed by the above statement.

This fails to take into account, the fact that there are severe gaps in the striped bass year classes.

1. Many of us on the northern NJ beaches have noticed a lack of smaller ocean fish in the fall. In the past, even before the "fall run" was officially declared, many of us could catch a few small bass, salvaging the trip. Lately, that isn't the case.

2. In the last week, some smaller fish have moved inshore....these are commonly known as the "death rats" because the smaller fish, being more tolerant of colder water, generally signal the end of the run..,,this is a pattern we have come to rely on every year......

3. However, the fish in point 2 above are not the ones I am talking about.....it seems that many of our resident fish in NJ, are no longer there in numbers.....
To learn more, do a google search for
"NJ's resident bass, why have they abandoned us?"

4. This decline in smaller fish, correlates with a decline I have been noticing for the last 6 years in my fishing logs.....and a decline in YOY totals for each of the last 6 years, except 2011.

DarkSkies

12-06-2013, 02:10 PM

This fails to take into account, the fact that there are severe gaps in the striped bass year classes.

.

4. "Can't wait to catch my next trophy bass! Looking for a 60 lber!"

The grim truth is....many of those bigger fish are dead........
With the heavy emphasis on catching trophies in the last few years....fever over Greg Myerson's record bass from the CT rockpiles...we, as Americans, still have the "bigger is better" mentality in a lot of things we do.....

Bass fishing is no different....
Weighing in a 25 lb bass or posting a pic on the internet....garners some praise.....
But we all know...that weighing in a 40lb, or posting the pics......gets much more attention...

So much attention that fewer and fewer bigger bass are being caught regularly....
We have "over-harvested" that segment of the striped bass population.

Don't believe me? :don't know why:
Do a search of fishing reports of headboats, charters, private boats...on any major fishing site.....
Even at Montauk, you will see the average size of the bigger fish being caught is 20-25 lbs.

Are there bigger ones caught?
Absolutely....but if you fish regularly, you have to have noticed the average size is declining every year......
One reason being that we are over-harvesting the big girls......and they are not being replaced quickly enough.......it takes a 35lb bass an average of 15-20 years to mature to that size.....many folks are not understanding that part of the equation.....they are not like Doritos...ya just can't make more......

DarkSkies

12-06-2013, 02:29 PM

5. "There are no bass inshore because there is too much bait offshore!"

There are times when the above statement makes logical sense.
It would also make sense to say that the bass are not close in some areas because of the extensive beach replenishment.

However, this statement doesn't take several instances into effect. The years 2011 to 2013, some areas of NJ coasts had miles of bunker just 1/4 mile offshore for several late Spring months into Summer. In some cases these vast schools of bunker stretched for up to 20 miles.

Bunker is arguably one of the best and most desirable food sources for striped bass....and a preferred food source.....

**For the above statement to always be true, the converse - that when there are miles of bunker in close, there should be thousands of bass on them - should be true as well....
For parts of 2011- 2013, it was not.......what we had in the late spring, after the first wave of bass moved north, was a dead sea filled with miles of bunker.....and not many bass at all under them........

This fact supports the statement that the biomass is declining......and I offer it as proof in the argument here in hopes that some who don't get out there to fish a lot, will begin to re-assess their thoughts and think of the other possibilities why they are not seeing bass in front of them......

Thanks for reading.....:HappyWave:

nitestrikes

12-06-2013, 04:03 PM

The Biomass is contracting...but they cannot see it, fishing in the middle.

E. When the fishery is healthy, fish will be in the middle, as well as the edges.....there will be good representations of all the year classes through the range of catching and harvesting....
When the fishery is not healthy (like it is now), you will start to see it first, on the edges
(do a Google search for
"m&m theory" striped bass
to learn more about this.)

**Many fishermen, if they are catching, just don't want to take the effort to get that involved in thinking about bass....so to them, as long as they are catching, the fishery is healthy.....

I'm sorry to say it but most of these people saying that are clueless. It would be nice if they wanted to learn but they don't. My .02. The ones who care already know.

jigfreak

12-07-2013, 11:33 PM

Dark what do you think of this. Sharkhart posted in another thread. Capt Sal Cursi of the Cathy Sea charters. Says the bass stocks are healthy because of all the rats around right now.

"
We have been invaded by small stripers!The talk early in the year was "Wonder were all the small schoolies are''?Seems like they don't show up as much on the clam beds like they did a few years ago.It is a great sign to see them in mass quantity as the future looks good.It is a changing fishery with multiple year class stripers at different times of the year.I would much rather eat a 28" bass then a fat 43" spawner.In fact I wish we had the slot fish and could keep one 26" for dinner.No matter what with the hughe mass of small stripers in our waters is a good thing.All the fish we have been jigging are released with out being harmed.Great sport and and an occasional keeper for dinner!Looks good for my grandchildren.http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
__________________

I can't believe hes a captain. Where did he get his captains license a box of cracker jacks? All the talk about the bass numbers being around and this chump is talking about numbers of small bass as being a sign from Allah that all is well. These small rats show up every year how could a professional capt not be aware of that? He has no credibility. Absolute fool.

DarkSkies

12-09-2013, 01:37 PM

Dark what do you think of this. Sharkhart posted in another thread.

I'm putting a response together....will post when I get a chance....the best I can say right now is the original claim tying this in to the health of the fishery, is misleading.

This is something that happens every year toward the end of the run as the last stragglers will be the smaller fish schooling up to make the Winter trek up the Hudson. There are thousands of small fish in Ambrose and other channels of the NY Bight right now.....

You can launch inside NY harbor and easily catch 50 or more baby bass/man/per day by bucktailing under the barges when the tide is running...my brother and I did it years ago from a boat...and this same pattern has existed for decades, (after 1985) where we see these small fish, give or take a few weeks, at the end of the season......

**It has no reflection on the health of the fishery...it is a migrational pattern.....most who fish regularly know that and would not mis-interpret that information.......

SharkHart contacted me via text and showed me where he tried to point that out, on another internet forum, and his response was ignored....:don't know why:

I'll come back with a more detailed response when I get time to compose it...thanks for reading.....:HappyWave:

dogfish

12-09-2013, 04:17 PM

I can't believe hes a captain. Where did he get his captains license a box of cracker jacks? All the talk about the bass numbers being around and this chump is talking about numbers of small bass as being a sign from Allah that all is well. These small rats show up every year how could a professional capt not be aware of that? He has no credibility. Absolute fool.

By us it is usually the folks with a comm license who keep on saying how healthy the bass are no matter what the numbers really are. Some of the part-time capts who come here for the limited MA comm season can make up to 40k in a few short weeks. Do you really think they are motivated to tell the truth? The only motivation is the almighty dollar. That and buying the wifey a new SUV or the kids the fancy electronics they want for xmas. My .02

robmedina

12-09-2013, 05:46 PM

Dark, do you think trout anglers have a decent blueprint for how to save a fishery?

finchaser

12-09-2013, 08:04 PM

Dark, do you think trout anglers have a decent blueprint for how to save a fishery?

No because they have to stock every year to keep it viable

DarkSkies

12-10-2013, 10:00 AM

Rob, Fin has a valid point there...so before I give you one of my standard 500 word replies..;)..what aspect of trout fishing are we talking about here?

1. Stocking program? (Fin answered that point correctly)
2. Licensing with special stamp for trophy fish?
3. No kill areas like they have on some river sections?
4. Promoting conservation by education and raising awareness?

If you could be more specific, I'll try to answer your question in a few paragraphs or less. Thanks for thinking out of the box. :HappyWave:

robmedina

12-10-2013, 09:26 PM

robmedina

12-10-2013, 09:27 PM

so I guess #4. :)

DarkSkies

12-11-2013, 09:46 AM

I guess I was saying with reverence. Trout are almost sacred. Some purist wont even touch the trout with their hands. They land them in nets, the take the barbless hook out with forceps and release back into the current. They organize , they lobby, they protect. It just seems that trout get so much respect from those that fish for them that they move mountains.

Rob, that's an admirable way to treat fish, if you are releasing them.
I don't want you to think I am criticizing trout fishermen here, or downplaying your ideas....it's all good....:thumbsup:

What I see out there, is a disconnect between many fishermen, and those who C&R.......
There are fishermen out there who have never released a legal fish in their lives.....they have trouble understanding those who do....I still get that from some family members when I tell them of a good day/night out there...and they ask me why I am throwing so many keepers back.......

This has allowed me to see, that many folks out there just don't understand.
As I illustrated above, by always fishing in the middle of the action, and seeking the highest areas of activity, they have trouble comprehending that bass are in trouble. The attitude is, well the bass are there, you just have to burn more gas to get to them.....

(As in the case of the Golden Eagle this early fall, who was at one point burning lots of fuel to travel up to 50 miles each way to the Captree LI area bite......)

Many don't see the absurdity of that....when there were lots of fish, widely distributed, as in the past, boats haven't had to travel up to 50 miles one way to get to them......

DarkSkies

12-11-2013, 09:47 AM

Even Stripers Forever, a conservation group that was chartered to help ALL saltwater fishermen, has been blasted by some critics, as an elitist group of fly flshermen.
I say this not to be critical, but to paint the framework of the politics and uninformed opinions that we have to deal with, daily.......

This is just my opinion...but I feel that
1. Raising Awareness
2. Educational posts and threads
are effective........

When it becomes too zealous, like the folks are preaching, or the audience feels like it it being preached at......the audience will be lost........
This is why I feel, although many things are obvious to me.....that others may need more education, documentation, and stats, before they become aware....

** Unfortunately before that happens on a large scale basis, it may be too late.....
(That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to raise Education and Awareness, though...never give up, Rob.....passion for a cause has often been the catalyst to get others interested....)

Expecting folks to treat striped bass with reverence, when they just don't have that reverence to begin with.....may be a bit unrealistic....We may need some kind of legislation, like an expanded Striped Bass Gamefish Act, to finally save these bass, other than a moratorium...

Hope that answered your question.....thanks as always for trying to come up with different perspectives......:HappyWave:

Monty

12-11-2013, 10:56 AM

DarkSkies

12-11-2013, 11:09 AM

^^ I agree, Monty, but that's what we're dealing with out there.....there is a large group of anglers who really don't understand the striped bass are in danger.....they listen to internet proclamations by others who have hidden agendas, and may be financially motivated to bash these conservation groups........

I have and will continue to support Stripers Forever.....

I'm already a member, and have spent countless hours and gas $$ supporting various causes they try to promote.
A few years ago I went to MA to speak with the Legislature when a bill trying to make Stripers a Gamefish up there was proposed and failed.....well....we did try anyway, but Commercial opposition and General fishermen Apathy was too great to overcome.........
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?5697-Report-MA-gamefish-bill-meeting

Some out there have given negative feedback that Stripers Forever is too elitist for them....

This is the thing with PACS (like Stripers Forever and others)......
They do their best to represent....but they cannot, and will not, claim to represent 100% of the interests of every fisherman out there........

I may not agree with everything they do or ask the members to do.....
but I still recognize the need for a PAC to represent the Striped Bass fishermen out there.....
There is no single fisherman who can do it by himself, no matter how motivated......there is power in Groups....and these groups, are who senators listen to.

Thanks for reading.....:HappyWave:

I'm just laying out the things that people have said, to let others out there, know who and what we're up against.....
in the end....there is too much apathy......even with the gamefish bill in MA, there should have been a lot more support....
Stripers Forever had a strong representation....:thumbsup:

But where were the hundreds of recreational fishermen, who could have attended?
That's all I'm trying to point out.....

It's one thing to talk about these issues on the internet....
When it comes time for fishermen to stand up and be counted....many will not....excuse after excuse...until the Pols start to look at fishermen groups as not that strong........

I don't know how to solve the fishermen Apathy issue....have been trying for years.....and some better than me....the original ones who spurred me into action....have given up.....and are resigned to an eventual moratorium........

So if pointing out the negatives....I can get a rise out of folks...spur some to action....that's a good thing....fishermen need to realize that WE are part of any fishing issues that surround us....and get off their asses and get involved......
Thanks for reading....

storminsteve

12-11-2013, 12:50 PM

buckethead

12-11-2013, 09:50 PM

**The Sum Total....of the harvest, illegal and legal, by the Commercials, is less than what we are now taking from the Recreational side...
If (and when) another moratorium is declared, fault will rest squarely on the shoulders of us, the Recreational fishermen.

Spot on. Here is a chart to prove it.
Notice the commercial catch has remained stable

17823

In this one you can see how the recreational numbers have skyrocketed over time
.
17822

robmedina

04-26-2014, 09:26 PM

just read a post on another forum which shows Russ Allan's data that Striped bass is NOT in danger and the regulations are working!!! YEAH!!! now we can all go out and catch all them bass.....

buckethead

04-26-2014, 10:23 PM

Rob, I read Russ Allen's presentation. I disagree. They are counting on the 2011 year class to make up for all the gaps in the bass now. Not feasible or do-able. That's one of the reasons they are changing the limit to 1 by 2015. Imo it can't come soon enough. Right now Raritan bay has a lot of bass as they are gearing up to make the run into the Hudson. These bass are all around 15-25 lbs. Further evidence of gaps. I think finchaser or dark has talked about this before and it's something I see every time I fish.
Report, I fished moco before the rain. Managed 5 small bass on bucktail and grub. Outgoing tide. Fish were on the bottom with a few bunker.

buckethead

04-26-2014, 10:27 PM

5. Only 1 fish over a certain size could be kept to stop the snag and drop pencil popper crew from killing 2 big fish a day
6. Different size limits were proposed
7. Different bag limits were proposed

Remember these are proposals that may be voted on at latter meetings this year for the 2015 season.

Major emphasis is on saving the 2016/2017/2018 breeding stock as the breeding stock that will be needed to replenish and sustain the fishery. The stock responsible for the come stripers back has been diminished, as indicated in the last few years YOY index.

I agree there seem to be less and less bigger fish caught every year. Thank you for the update finchaser.

robmedina

04-26-2014, 10:45 PM

Rob, I read Russ Allen's presentation. I disagree.
I was being sarcastic, lol! Yeah Russ Allen is full of crap!

DarkSkies

04-27-2014, 11:56 AM

Bucket and Rob, I agree with what you said as well.
We have further discussions on that here:

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8080-captains-charters-and-customers-what-are-they-saying

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?760-Where-are-the-Striped-Bass

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8634-Stripers-are-in-TROUBLE

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7755-Candid-conversations-with-fishermen-about-striped-bass

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...rvation-Corner (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8788-Dark-Skies-Conservation-Corner)

ASMFC stats
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7594-Striped-bass-reductions-ASMFC-to-reduce-striped-bass-catches-across-the-board

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7506-Recreational-Bass-landings-down-70-from-2006

No disrepect to Russ Allen. I wish I could have been there to meet him and see his presentation. I would have had some questions that he would have struggled to answer.
Again, no disrespect meant, and he certainly has impressive credentials. :thumbsup:

Without getting into a full-page answer, what the scientists are claiming, has consistently been around 3 years behind what most fishermen are seeing and reporting.

The ASMFC claim that striped bass are not overfished, is technically accurate, but somewhat misleading for the following reasons:
1. Striped bass biomass, the SSB part of it (Spawing striped bass is a smaller component of the entire biomass), is within 1 million lbs of the point where they are mandated to declare overfishing.
2. This is accurate and provable by reviewing ASMFC stats.
3. They have been counting on the strength of the 2010 and 2011 YOY class to carry the whole fishery. It's becoming more apparent each year, that this is not possible. Hence the claim of mortality reduction as being the new agenda.

4. One of the reasons given for the future reduction in size limits is to "reduce mortality". I don't know how to say this any less diplomatically, other than that is misleading as hell.
5. Would the ASMFC be cutting the bag limit in half, just to reduce mortality?
(If you fish a lot and see the reality out there, you would know this is said for political reasons)

6. The ASMFC has been aware of a decliine for the last 5 years, and has discussed it each time, putting it off. Much of this "putting off till tomorrow" in the decision making process has come from political pressure, charter and party boat factions pressuring politicians behind the scenes that they will suffer if such a drastic reduction is taken.
And make no mistake about it, a reduction to one fish is a drastic reduction...they could have changed size limits, etc...and other options if they were solely concerned about mortality.......

** To understand this better, you have to read between the lines, and have enough sophistication to understand that sometimes these decisions are more driven by politics, than science......
Most folks would not realize the pressuring and lobbying that goes on behind the scenes, even before these meetings take place....
Even a state like PA, (as Finchaser has pointed out many times)...has a big say in the outcome of these meetings. People assuming it's all about the coastal states, are inaccurate in their assumptions.

**In sum, it's the fishermen who fish regularly, who notice the changes in the population, long before the scientists do. Anyone who would dispute that really doesn't fish that much, or doesn't have a clear understanding of the political process that sometimes drives these meetings.

As always, differences of opinion are welcome here, but please back up your statements with some data or your own personal logs if you are going to say the striped bass are not overfished. Thanks. :HappyWave:

ledhead36

04-27-2014, 12:36 PM

Rich I agree with you 100%. I don't have the words to say it like you do but the striper population is in trouble. Every year me and the guys catch between 2-500 stripers before they move out for the summer. I know you can back me up on this, some might think I'm bragging. Most of these fish are the holdover fish that winter in the arthur kill. We did not see those fish this year or last year. If you ask me where they went, I think they are all dead. They have been there every year in the sprng without fail. Last 2 years only dribs and drabs.
2 nights ago I fished and got all dinks, last night we got fish to 15pounds. There is no rhyme or reason because there are less fish. Plain and simple. Fishing report, got em last night under the bunker schools to 15 lbs. Back bay. Fresh bunker strips were the ticket.

baitstealer

04-29-2014, 11:42 AM

6. The ASMFC has been aware of a decliine for the last 5 years, and has discussed it each time, putting it off. Much of this "putting off till tomorrow" in the decision making process has come from political pressure, charter and party boat factions pressuring politicians behind the scenes that they will suffer if such a drastic reduction is taken.
And make no mistake about it, a reduction to one fish is a drastic reduction...they could have changed size limits, etc...and other options if they were solely concerned about mortality.......

What other options could be on the table, does any one have any ideas? thanks

DarkSkies

04-30-2014, 08:33 AM

^ Baitstealer, as I understand it....they are looking for a 31% reduction in striped bass harvest, Coast wide....
(as mentioned, that big a reduction is a clear indication, to me, that there is a problem with the stock beyond "mortality issues" )

They have specific formulas as to what limits should produce which reductions, somewhat similar to the calculations made for fluke.

Some options-

1. 2 at 33"
2. One at 28", or whatever size they determine will achieve this 31% reduction.

The above are scientifically calculable, to an extent (given the statistical variability I have already explained earlier in this thread)
Other options:

3. Close the Delaware Bay Raritan Bay, or Hudson River down for the spawn, This is not impossible. It has already been done in the Chesapeake, and early reports are positive (no Capts going out of business, or losing homes, etc)
It's been said that this one move, could reduce the need to decrease the bag limits for bass....and the stock could recover more quickly.

However, there is strong commercial opposition, charter, party boat lobbyists, states like PA which always lobby hard against any reduction. This makes doing that, at this time, unlikely....
It does make sense to me and a lot of other folks.....

4. Striped Bass Gamefish Bill - suggested again to me yesterday by an old salt I had a conversation with......I support the gamefish bill, but with each passing year wonder if it really has a chance of happening...with all the fishermen Apathy I see out there....

If anyone has other options they want to discuss or have questions on, feel free to post....
Thanks for reading...:HappyWave:

DarkSkies

06-10-2014, 08:53 AM

IMO this was a great start, as has been mentioned. The clubs are some of the most visible ambassadors of surf and land fishermen out there. There has been movement by other clubs to host tourneys like this as well. It's tough to change old ways of doing things. I have a lot of friends in different clubs. The larger the organization, the more difficult it is to put forth and vote on new ideas.

Like others, I'm hoping that the rest of the clubs will discuss and try to follow the example Berkeley has set.
Please bear in mind that even for Berkeley this was difficult. As with any club, there was internal dissention. and there was a lot of back and forth before this could come to be.......

So let's try to keep a positive outlook for the future. :thumbsup: As mentioned, this was a step in the right direction, and hopefully is the wave of the future. It will take time, though, so please let's be patient as clubs and organizations start to realize the positive benefits. :clapping:

DarkSkies

06-10-2014, 09:18 AM

1. Berkeley Tourney and the Lack of Abundance of fish along the 2014 NJ Shorline:
On a side note, I know a lot of the anglers who ended in the top spots.
Now that it's over, I can report that half the large fish entered, came from one particular area in New Jersey.

For those who say
"Stripers are not in danger, they are as abundant as ever"
"Stripers are still being caught, you just have to work for them"

I would say the above statements are inaccurate and misleading.

http://www.city-data.com/states/New-Jersey-Location-size-and-extent.html
"New Jersey's total boundary length is 480 mi (773 km), including a general coastline of 130 mi (209 km); the tidal shoreline is 1,792 mi (2,884 km). "

With 130 miles of coastline in NJ, and 1700 miles of tidal water, it is sobering to think that the majority of these fish came from one small area of our coastline.
There are bass available in other areas.....but larger fish are few and far between.
**My point is that in the first 2 weeks of June, prime time for bass fishing in NJ, there are so few opportunities to catch bigger striped bass from land, (and not including bridges) that to, me, it is sad, and is another indicator of a deficit in the striped bass biomass.......

I only need to go back 8-10 years, when I remember a few dozen places this time of year where you could catch larger striped bass from land.....this is evident as well, to any seasoned fishermen who have been fishing for more than a decade and know how and where to target larger bass at night.....they are just not there......in the numbers they and places they used to be found in....

2. Another Example- Monmouth Beach Cartoppers Contest - June 2014

From Al Ristori's column at www.nj.com (http://www.nj.com)
"Joe Melillo is proud of this weekend's win by the small-membership Spring Lake Live Liners over bigger clubs in the Monmouth Beach Cartoppers contest. He said the Asbury Park club was second.Melillo nailed a13 9/16-pound striper on a swimming plug in the Point Pleasant surf, and Mike Commune of Brick plugged a 13-pounder there. Gerald CeCe of Point Pleasant plugged his 17-pound bass at Bay Head, where Terry Martuscelli of Brick fished a chunk to beach a 17-pound bass. Mickey Sweeney of Howell fished clams in Bay Head for linesiders of 11 and 13 pounds."

Results of the Monmouth Beach Car Toppers Tournament.

Spring Lake Live Liners 83 Points
Asbury Park Fishing Club 36 Points
There were no other weigh-ins.

Congratulations to Bob Matthews, for the Largest Bass, 20 pounds.
Congratulations also to Gerald Cece
Terry Martuscelli
Joe Melillo Sr.
Mike Comune

To put this in perspective, each pound was worth one point....the total points for the contest were 119.....meaning out of all the clubs involved, fishing all the holes, cuts, points, inlets, and back bay sloughs they know very well, and have caught countless fish from before....
The best of the best, the old salts from these clubs....some with over 60 years of fishing experience....could only manage to find and catch,

119 lbs of fish.....for the whole weekend....

To me....that says a lot....about the reality of how poor our striped bass fishing (from land) is, right now.....:learn:

Thanks for reading....:HappyWave:

robmedina

06-13-2014, 10:58 AM

Changes in striped bass regulations coming in 2015

Written by John Oswald

"For the last several years anglers from far and wide have enjoyed world-class striper fishing along the New Jersey coast. There have been more trophy fish in greater numbers than anyone can remember. Even I have caught a couple of fish in excess of 35 pounds, and those acquainted with my skills would call that nothing less than miraculous.

But the bountiful catches of big fish have raised a few concerns. While striped bass are not overfished and overfishing is not occurring, there has been a decline in the spawning stock biomass, the total weight of all sexually mature fish in the population. This decline, along with some additional factors, has led fishery managers to develop an addendum to address these concerns.

Initially, the addendum was to have been put out for public comments in May, but since any proposed changes were not going to be implemented until 2015, members of the ASMFC's Striped Bass Board elected to make further refinements to the document before releasing it for public review.

Russ Allen, a fisheries biologist with the N.J. Bureau of Marine Fisheries and a member of the ASMFC's Striped Bass Board said the impetus for the action came from a couple of fronts.

"There was a sense from the general public that something needed to be done as far as striped bass management," Allen said. "When you talk to some of the old timers, they're telling you this reminds them of when the crash happened before."

Allen is referring to the late 1970s and early 80s when striped bass were hard to find for recreational anglers. Prior to that low point, he said, some very big fish were being caught.

Back then, Allen said, fishermen may have been part of the problem, but now they know how it works. Not everyone agrees that history is repeating itself, but there are some questions.

"There are a lot of people who have had exceptional, historic fishing on some very large fish for a number of years," said Capt. Adam Nowalsky, chairman of the New Jersey Chapter of the Recreational Fishing Alliance and a member of the Plan Development Team for the addendum.

"I think anytime people see large landings of anything it raises concerns in their eyes. How much of that is perception and how much is grounded in reallty, well that's what a lot of the debate is about," Nowalsky said.

Nowalsky also said there were concerns about a decline in harvests in the northern ranges of the the species, such as New Hampshire, Massachusetts and Maine and worries about the fish coming out of Chesapeake Bay.

The other push for more striped bass management comes from the technical side. Allen said the Striped Bass Technical Committee convened after the last stock asssessment in 2013 to develop new reference points for the spawning stock biomass.

Using the new reference points in the assessment, which was peer reviewed, the Committee learned that the spawning stock biomass was declining while fishing mortality was on the increase, never a good combination.

Based on those figures, the ASMFC is required by the management plan to implement new management measures.

"We (managers) had to do something and the public thinks we need to do something," Allen said. "They've been around long enough and they see what's going on and they're the best voice of reason because they are out there fishing."

When fishery managers met in May to approve the amendment, they realized there were still some refinements to be made to the document. Some of the issues had to do with the new reference points, the proposed options that will be used to achieve the target reductions, and how to account for the differences in the Chesapeake Bay and coastal striped bass stocks.

"The discussion was such that everybody realized that putting it off another meeting cycle would not impact the overall time of implementation," Nowalsky said. "They wanted to go out with the most reasonable set of options that would elicit the greatest amount of input from the public."

While the possible options have yet to be finalized, the choices may include a decrease in the bag limit from two to one fish, a limit of one smaller fish and a trophy-sized fish, a slot fish or any combination thereof. One option might be a slot fish fo 28 to 33 inches and another fish over 40 inches.

The goal of the amendment, said Allen, will be a reduction in the total harvest from around 32 to 36 percent. "A one-fish limit at 28 inches should get us close," he said.

Another component of the amendment will be the time frame for the proposed harvest reductions. The time frame may be over one year or three years.

It is now expected that the revised amendment, with the newest options, will be available for public comment toward the end of August. It will remain out for public comment through September and part of October, then come back to the Commission for approval in October.

Once approved, the amendment will go through the legislative process and should be ready for implementation in January of 2015.

Allen expects New Jersey will hold two public meetings, one in Cape May and the other in Toms River and he is very interested in what comes out of those meetings.

According to the feedback he's been receiving this spring. there's overwhelming support for taking action. "What I hear the most is that we're taking too many big fish. I'm hoping that's what everyone else is hearing too, but you never know.

"There's going to be some sort of reduction and it may take place in one year or over three years," said Allen. He believes the public will want to do it in one year. And as far as doing something about making some changes to striped bass management, he believes everyone is on the same page.

Whether the action is enough to halt the decline in spawning stock from historic highs is another question.

"They (managers) may want to put an end to the decline but nothing in nature remains static," Nowalsky said. "Nature is constantly changing, constantly fluid. They'd like to maintain the biomass at historic levels but it's simply impossible, impossible for any species."

"For the last several years anglers from far and wide have enjoyed world-class striper fishing along the New Jersey coast." - REALLY???!!!!!

"The goal of the amendment, said Allen, will be a reduction in the total harvest from around 32 to 36 percent. "A one-fish limit at 28 inches should get us close," he said." - Really? I thought we have had world class fishing???

CharlieTuna

06-13-2014, 08:00 PM

They better do something soon. A lot of fishermen used to come up to the Cape for fishing vacations. My friend who has a budget motel that caters to out of state fishermen says that segment of his business has fallen by 50% during the last few years.

DarkSkies

08-04-2014, 10:07 AM

People, thank you for keeping up the interest in Conservation.

A general gripe I have lately is that when an article like the ones above come up on some internet forums, there are some negative people out there, who immediately dismiss that as "Well that guy is a tree hugger, you can't believe "Those people". :rolleyes:

If you fish more than occasionally, and are out there several times a week, fishing in different areas, there is no way you can not have noticed a decline in bass fishing. The biggest nay-saying comments I am seeing are from folks who only fish one area, or have an ancillary or financial interest in keeping the striped bass regs as they are, and don't want to be honest about their motivation.

If any of you have fished Atom Plugs, and caught fish on them, you owe part of that success to Bob Pond (RIP)
There is a difference between being a
1. "Tree hugger" or Preservationist, (IMO an Environmental Zealot who doesn't want anyone to enjoy any part of the environment unless they are mere observers with binoculars)

2. And a Conservationist, one who has love for the Outdoors, Fishing, and Hunting, with an eye on maintaining that particular biomass for the Future, that of our children and grandchildren.
Bob Pond was a Conservationist.

He warned against the rosy predictions being made, and was seeing a drop in the bass numbers that he was catching.
He knew of others who were saying the same thing.
Many folks out there ridiculed Bob Pond, as a nutcase and "Sky is Falling" Environmentalist.
Moratorium: Striped Bass Moratorium? Life without bass?? Almost a reality (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?7486-Moratorium-Striped-Bass-Moratorium-Life-without-bass-Almost-a-reality&highlight=bob+pond) (post 11)
Bob Pond has passed (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?5595-Bob-Pond-has-passed&highlight=bob+pond)

Many of those doing that, had a vested financial or ancillary interest in not making striped bass regs more restrictive.

We also see that Bob Pond's predictions were true and accurate.
Legends of the Salt... Saltwater Hall of Fame thread (http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?5733-Legends-of-the-Salt-Saltwater-Hall-of-Fame-thread&highlight=bob+pond)

To me, it's easy to see.
Because I am out there more than many folks, up to 6 nights a week when the fish are there, maybe it's easier for me to see this than others.
I expect Capts of for-Hire boats and Charter Capts to be able to see this as well. I know when many of them get together and speak privately, most of them are worried.

The recent move of some Montauk Capts, to encourage their fares to keep only one large bass, is a perfect example of the reality we now face.
Those who have credible experience, are worried.
Why would respected Capts be shooting themselves in the foot like this...if they know it can hurt their business...if not for honest assessment of a rapidly declining biomass?

**Those who have ulterior motives, try to confuse or derail the issues
Why would a few select Capts, try to cloud the issues here?
Food for thought..........

buckethead

08-04-2014, 10:38 AM

Why would a few select Capts, try to cloud the issues here?
Food for thought..........

Greed. Because they only care about today. The hell with tomorrow.

DarkSkies

09-25-2014, 06:44 PM

Thanks for all those who have contributed here...
Despite the thread title.....all opinions are welcome.....
If you're going to take a position contrary to what is spelled out here....feel free...but please have some concrete data to support it....thanks! :HappyWave:

DarkSkies

09-25-2014, 06:56 PM

Greed. Because they only care about today. The hell with tomorrow.

Thanks for sharing that, bucket....we have now come full circle, where some Capts and Charter Capts are showing again that there is no concern for the Striped bass fishery health....

Sent in by Finchaser...thanks.....:HappyWave:
This is the statement by a noted Party Boat Capt.........
"My vote is status quo on two fish at 28 inches, I'm sure, I'll have to pay for the consequences down the road."

Folks......I don't know what your opinion is of this statement....but to me it speaks of a Capt that is only concerned about today....to hell with tomorrow....that's not his problem...and he will fish for something else if they shut the fishery down.....

Meanwhile, since he has been around since before the moratorium, you would think he would not want to repeat the mistakes of the past....
To me, the agenda is clear here.....
"I'll milk this cow till there is no more milk...and then shoot her....and become a pig farmer if there are no more cows"

It's such an irresponsible statement, I don't know what else to say......
except this Capt is in a position to influence others.....who will blindly follow without questioning....:don't know why:

DarkSkies

09-25-2014, 07:05 PM

2014 ASFMC Striped Bass meetings....
These meetings have generated a lot of internet chatter on most sites....but very little actual participation.....

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?9683-Time-to-speak-up-or-shut-up-on-Bass-ASMFC-Sept-Meetings
RFA Position statement...
This week, the RFA has released a position statement indicating it supports
1 @ 28"
For the new proposed regulations.......

Many folks feel the RFA is "Pro Boater, Pro Industry, etc"
I ask the doubters out there.....
If the RFA is willing to take such a strong position, and ask for such drastic cuts....
How is it possible the striped bass are healthier than ever?

I think it's more likely the RFA is mirroring the general consensus of what credible, seasoned, anglers are saying throughout the East Coast.....
a. striped bass catches are down overall
b. Previously productive areas hold few bass throughout the season
c. More are noticing and worried about the future
d. We are harvesting more fish than are being reproduced.
e. If cuts this drastic are being talked about, especially by such a pro-fisherman group as the RFA....it must be true that this fishery is in serious trouble......

I agree with the above assessments and statements.
thanks for reading.....:HappyWave:

DarkSkies

07-24-2015, 12:21 PM

Fishing on the boat last night, I had to time to think of things between stops.

It brought back memories of 10-15 years ago when I used to fish on boats regularly.
I also did some thinking about the arguments between land and boat fishermen on the internet, and general.

Basically, from my observations, it boils down to

A. surf fishermen talking about and documenting their experience that they are not seeing as many bass, in the usual places. Many of the great bites in the last few years have been in the middle of a large body of fish, if you intercept them on their migratory path at the right time.

B. (some) boat fishermen emphatically state the following?
1. The patterns have changed. If you don't recognize that you won't catch fish.
2. There are plenty of bass around now, and the numbers are fine....
3. If you are not catching bass, then either you are not trying hard enough, or just not that good of a fisherman.:kooky:

Covering all that ground last night got me to thinking......
If you fish from land, it is indeed harder..... because to find fish you often have to pack up and move, or drive to another area, to find quantities of feeding fish at night.

Fishing from a boat gives you much more flexibility....
For example, if the NJ bite is poor, if conditions are poor, within an hour's time (with calm seas) you can run over and be fishing an entirely different area...different opportunities....in NY....

That becomes less feasible if you're land based...

DarkSkies

07-24-2015, 12:41 PM

As we made our way past each location....
I made a mental note of each time I had caught fish from a boat at that location in the past....(and when)

Last night.....I crossed a few dozen places off the list of possibilities.....because the fish no longer show up there in any significant numbers.....

What this told me......

A. Fish can still be found in primary migration or staging areas....if you put your time in and understand feeding behavior relative to tides and forage sources.

B. The biggest changes I have seen over the last 10 years....and more importantly over the last 5....is that bass are just not in the secondary areas...in the numbers like they used to be.
Your best chance of getting a large bass now...is to fish in the middle of the highest concentration.

It occurred to me, that if you only fish from a boat...and only try to fish in the middle of a large area of active bass, or blitzing bass...
You are not likely to notice the actual decline, that most of the rest are seeing....
Since you are more likely to cover a larger % of areas in your OTW travels,
It seems very reasonable to me that most, who have a few decades of experience....should be quicker to notice this shift, than those who only fish from land....

What stood out most clearly in my head...
Is if you primarily fish from a boat.....the lack of fish in secondary areas should be even more noticable..:don't know why:

Yet some folks adamantly claim there is nothing wrong with the SB population...
Leading me to conclude that those who continue to say that.....despite overwhelming contrary evidence.....either have
!. Commercial ties or agendas.
2. Financial incentives for making those statements.

Thanks for reading...
Would appreciate any other thoughts you folks have...
Even if you disagree....:HappyWave: