Striped Bass and the Apple Tree?

[DarkSkies]

There are threads on the internet equating the striped bass population to a bowl of M&Ms......

That's a great analogy....
And was thought of years ago by a guy I once knew...I think his name was Dave, but memory escapes me at times....:o

[DarkSkies]

The thing is, there are a lot of newer anglers out there.....

They may not accept that as relevant.
Although, if you don't agree, and want to learn about it, feel free to click on these threads and things could become more clearer to you. :learn:


M&M theory is explained in post 45 of this thread
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?760-Where-are-the-Striped-Bass/page3

[DarkSkies]

There is also a thread here where we talk about what is happening to the striped bass today, here and now......

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8788-Dark-Skies-Conservation-Corner

[DarkSkies]

There have been some obstacles to reaching folks over the years......I do a lot of thinking and talking with older anglers about this, and we seem to be in agreeement in the following areas.....

1. Many more people are fishing for striped bass than a decade ago.

2. More from the surf, more from boats, and also commercial charters and head boats.

3. There are a lot of anglers who have only recently started fishing saltwater, like in the last 5 years.....
When we talk about something that happened 2 or 3 decades ago, how can they be expected to relate to that? :huh:
........after much thinking, I realized they cannot be expected to know what happened 30, 20, or even 10 years ago......it may too much to expect from a guy who only goes fishing once a week, or once a month, or only a few times a season...

4. Many new anglers out there, just don't have this depth of perspective...and that's not their fault, it's how it is......

5. Realizing this, there are several discussions popping up every winter on internet saltwater forums.....many good opinions and seasoned perspectives....

6. Unfortunately, some of us are so passionate about our beliefs...that these discussions sometimes promote judging of others and finger pointing....If one side had no understanding, they are called "meat men"......and the other side is called "PETA freaks"

7. The sad thing is that we are all fishermen, we all need to learn to fish together and share in this precious resource that we love to fish for....our striped bass....and yes I say "Our" because they do belong to all of us......they are a shared resource where regulations coast-wide are not consistent....naturally that will cause hard feelings between people who live in different states....

8. To top it all off, as has been mentioned here many times before...the other fish that fishermen fish for....sea bass, blackfish, fluke, flounder, redfish, etc, have all had their seasons restricted or size limits raised, and catch limits lowered, over the past 5 years....putting tremendous pressure on the striped bass fishery....
Coupled with the fact there are some Capts and fishermen who continue to target them when the season is closed..or fish in restricted areas beyond the 3 mile limit.....is it any wonder many seasoned anglers are grumbling that they are catching less striped bass overall? :don't know why:

[DarkSkies]

* You can learn some of this going to regular fisheries management meetings for your area...I know...boooooring.....:rolleyes:

* You can also learn by talking to Charter Capts and finding one who will give you an honest take on the numbers he is getting for the last 5-8 years.

* You can also talk to old-timers who lived through the Striped Bass Moratorium....
but if you just started fishing,,,who cares about the Moratorium? :kooky:

....and what do the Old Timers know....that would benefit me? :rolleyes:

[DarkSkies]

I think the last 2 questions above are the general consensus of a lot of anglers out there.....
Many don't care, or are too busy to care......I can understand that.......

Why should folks be worried about a Moratorium that happened 30 years ago?
What relevance does that have to today? :boring:

[DarkSkies]

When it comes to paying attention to these issues....the truth is....it's damn boring! :scared:

I get that....and find that apathy in many areas in life when I try to get fishermen involved......


The thing is, every year we notice less and less big fish caught....
The OGB is fond of saying....."Striped bass are not like Doritos, you just can't make more!"

I think that's a great assessment....and really wish folks would pay attention when he says that.....

[DarkSkies]

Some simple truths........

1. We are closer now to a moratorium than we have ever been in the last 30 years since striped bass were rebuilt.

2. As mentioned, more pressure on striped bass than ever before with closures in many other fisheries.

3. A stubborn refusal of a large group of anglers to recognize there is anything wrong at all...let me clarify this...although many more today are thinking about striped bass as a renewal resource, and this mindset is growing.....There are some who have a selfish mentality of "I'm gettng mine, leave me alone" ...some folks only fish certain areas at certain times of the year, and thus they would not be able to see the big picture.....

4. The decline of YOY stats.....
These YOY stats..scientific measures of Young of the Year in the main spawning areas.... have been discussed here before.....I imagine some folks are bored as hell hearing about it......:boring:Some say the figures are BS.....nonetheless, we have to have some benchmark to measure the bass by......

[DarkSkies]

There is also another thread called.."Honey the Striped Bass are Shrinking"

http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/showthread.php?8450-Honey-the-Striped-Bass-are-Shrinking-How-to-Recognize-the-Signs

I realize in the above post I'm telling you folks out there that we have to have some belief in numbers...that is true.....




The thing about the YOY stats,,,,they are actual, real, raw data. collected under strict statistical sampling guidelines. One thing I remember about statistics in college is that the larger the sample size is, the more likely your data will be accurate.

As the sample size increases, your confidence in the projections will increase. Google confidence interval/ Statistical degree of confidence if you want to learn more....

With a smaller sample size, there will be a lesser degree of confidence.....

[DarkSkies]

What some folks may not understand about the striped bass biomass, is that the biomass calculations come in part from the YOY data set collected from the estuaries........

In rough numbers, let's say there are 10 milliion bass, which is sometimes the number claimed to be the biomass on the entire Eastern Seaboard

* That includes all bass from the Hudson, Chesapeake, and Delaware River strains of bass...with some other factoring thrown in for the ones in the rivers of CT and NJ where some bass spend all winter. Scientists don't really feel these other areas are statistically meaningful, so as I understand it the numbers are sometimes lumped together..


* For the sake of discussion, if you use 10 million as the biomass, you would need to realize that 10 million is extrapolated from a relatively minor sample size of the YOY stats....so you take a couple thousand, even hundred thousand small fry.....and eventually come up with a number of 10 million......to me that's a great strain on the accepted statistical principles....as I tried to explain, the sample size is way to small......The thread Honey The Striped Bass are Shrinking referenced above should explain it a little better....





**Feel free to comment on either thread if you have questions......

[DarkSkies]

OK, now that everyone is totally bored and falling asleep, you need to know the first 10 posts were a reference for me in case someone comes along in the future and disputes this (as is their right, different opinions are always welcome).....

The last thing is credibility....someone can always say.....
1. You are not a scientist.
2. You are not doing this scientifically.
3. Therefore the whole thread cannot be accurate...

4. To that I would say these assessments, and the thread "Striped Bass State of the fishery" come not only from the 200-250 times a year that I fish, but also from seasoned veterans with decades of fishing experience......When a 60 or 70 year old angler tells me there are less fish, they are afraid we are headed for another moratorium, and this is echoed by scores of other interviews with guys of that experience who are saying the same thing....to me that has more validity than any scientific numbers.....

5. The old timers know, before the Stats came out closing the Striped Bass fishing in 1982, that something was wrong. They knew this long before the scientists and scientific data could prove it.

If you don't want to do the research and put in the time to learn what I have learned....just the first minute of this video could help to show you.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cc8bCOOfFs4






I submit to you folks here, that the old-timers, know that now, and are speaking out about it.....
The same parallels that were being drawn in 1978-1981, are once again surfacing....
Is anyone listening?

[DarkSkies]

Now that you're all thoroughly bored.....I'll simplify this, to make it easier to understand for everyone.......I'll fill it in with more segments as I get a chance...and try to tie all the key groups in, and how they relate to bass and this apple tree....hope you enjoy...thanks for reading.....:HappyWave:








Striped Bass and the Apple Tree..Part 1..... © DarkSkies 2013

**The analogy here that I am trying to get across is that of a huge apple tree, filled with striped bass instead of apples...

There was once a giant apple tree in King Neptune's backyard......:)
At that time the land was populated with simple and respectful folk...we'll call them the Pilgrims.....they were basically farmers and subsistence people, living off the land.

The tree was an apple tree, but there was something different about this apple tree. Apples did not grow from it. Instead, it was the only tree in the yard that grew striped bass. Not just any striped bass, but the Atlantic Striped bass, one of the greatest and most prized gamefish on the East Coast.

When people first heard of this striped bass tree, many were not interested. They said: "Why would we want those fish when we have cows and chickens to eat?"
Eventually, some of the cows died, and people wanted to try other things to sustain themselves. They grew wheat, which they made into bread. They grew corn and vegetables, which they enjoyed as well. They grew potatoes, carrots, and tomatoes, big juicy tomatoes dripping with flavor. :drool:

The thing that was missing was the protein.
Some started to gather around the striped bass tree, and saw that there were millions of striped bass, there for the taking. :bigeyes: Some grabbed a bass or 2 that was hanging like low lying fruit. They brought it home, put it on the fire, and cooked it. It was good. Yum, yum.

[williehookem]

dark this is another video where they talk about how there are less bass,around 4:45. some cool surfcasting scenes as well.


http://vimeo.com/42129694#

[stormchaser]

^^^Paul Melnyk and some and the other guys had some great things to say about that. I loved Paul's quote "We all have to die, might as well die like a man." Hardcore. Didn't realize he only has 4 fingers on one hand. Man this guy has made some sacrifices to do what he does. Great video willie thanks for posting. Thanks for trying to paint a different picture, dark. Striped bass apple tree lol.

[bababooey]

Oh my god Dark you have lost it totally. Striped bass from an apple tree.:kooky:
What's next, clams growing out of a burning bush?:ROFLMAO :HappyWave:

[storminsteve]

What's next, clams growing out of a burning bush?:ROFLMAO :HappyWave:

Bababooey if you are seeing clams and a burning bush maybe there is a need to check the girl for STDS. :laugh:

[dogfish]

When it comes to paying attention to these issues....the truth is....it's damn boring! :scared:

I get that....and find that apathy in many areas in life when I try to get fishermen involved......


The thing is, every year we notice less and less big fish caught....
The OGB is fond of saying....."Striped bass are not like Doritos, you just can't make more!"

I think that's a great assessment....and really wish folks would pay attention when he says that.....

:clapping:X2. The last 5 years I have been a steady decline here. Go to Maine and it's even worse. You can still get fish but mostly schoolies. Those SC videos are accurate as well. Wetzel is talking about the range of bass. He said someone asked him the question if the striped bass are so healthy how come they have not expanded their range? The guides in Maine will tell you the range is shrinking.
Bass summer as far north as Nova Scotia. Ask the folks up there how well they are doing each year. Even worse.

I have read many of finchasers post over the years. both here and on other sites. You can tell he speaks from the heart and love of the sport. Thank you finchaser.

[bluesdude71]

When a 60 or 70 year old angler tells me there are less fish, they are afraid we are headed for another moratorium, and this is echoed by scores of other interviews with guys of that experience who are saying the same thing....to me that has more validity than any scientific numbers.....

5. The old timers know, before the Stats came out closing the Striped Bass fishing in 1982, that something was wrong. They knew this long before the scientists and scientific data could prove it.

If you don't want to do the research and put in the time to learn what I have learned....just the first minute of this video could help to show you.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cc8bCOOfFs4






I submit to you folks here, that the old-timers, know that now, and are speaking out about it.....
The same parallels that were being drawn in 1978-1981, are once again surfacing....
Is anyone listening?

I'm not 60 or 70 but totally agree. Been fishing the Sound for 25 years. Steady decline in larger bass. There are still 4/5 good weeks when bigger bass are out front of most of the Ct rivers and on the boulder fields in summer but this is only my opinion that the numbers are not the same. For a while there was a big to do about the bunker not being around as much. I agree with that too. The bunker were here in more numbers this year so that is a positive development. The thing to think about is that even with more bunker the numbers of large fish overall is down. Of course Greg Myerson got his world record fish, in 2011. Blaine Anderson got his estimated 74 lb striper in May of last year. I still think the biggest stripers on the Coast are in the waters off Ct. That is because of the porgy and lobsters they like to eat and the way the water flows into the sound bringing a rich diet to our area. Additionally feel that another world record will come from here.

The thing I am noticing is that there are a lot less bass when you try to fish the shorelines and rivers. Always you will find small bass. They will commit suicide and are very aggressive. What is missing are the numbers of bass from 15 to 40 lbs. This is my opinion and observation and like you said I am not a scientist either dark. We are all just guys who love to fish. Some friends who fish a lot and are what you would call sharpies say the same thing though. Good thread.

[DarkSkies]

When it comes to paying attention to these issues....the truth is....it's damn boring! :scared:

I get that....and find that apathy in many areas in life when I try to get fishermen involved......


The thing is, every year we notice less and less big fish caught....
The OGB is fond of saying....."Striped bass are not like Doritos, you just can't make more!"

I think that's a great assessment....and really wish folks would pay attention when he says that.....


Thanks for the different perspectives, people. :thumbsup: :HappyWave:
An important point to remember is that Finchaser is one of the anglers who has seen the ups and downs of fishing. He was fishing regularly long before the moratorium. I spent a large # of my teen and young adult years partying, chasing girls, and then finally getting my life in order. I missed out on a lot of the 1980's to 1990's fishing as I would fish, but only occasionally.

I mention that because a long time ago I decided it wasn't just about my credibility.

It was about the credibility of Finchaser and fishermen in his age group that have a wealth of experience.
They have fished it.
They have seen it.
They have lived it.

[DarkSkies]

It was about the credibility of Finchaser and fishermen in his age group that have a wealth of experience.
They have fished it.
They have seen it.
They have lived it.

I try to focus on Fin and fishermen in his age group because it is my position that they know more than the scientists.
Many of them fish almost daily during the season.
Many of them fish twice a day.

It's my position that these guys are the ones who will get the first sense of when the bass stocks are in trouble, along with some other Capts and fishermen who have these decades of experience.

There are always those out there who want more proof before they believe.
I don't need more proof as I have seen my opportunities to catch suffer as well in the last years.
Some may disagree with that...I read all the time when guys fishing surf or from boats talk about fantastic years.
They may seem fantastic, if you have only been fishing for a few years and that is your only perspective.














Overall, if you start interviewing groups of 50-80 year old fishermen, who have fished regularly and consistently in the salt for all their lives, you will get a sense that there are less fish.......although we as fishermen disagree on many things, this is the recurrent theme each time I meet and interview another fisherman from this age range.

So....
Again I submit that these guys, fishing as much as they do,,,,know more than the scientists.
When folks try to shoot that down, and discount that, I believe they are being irrational. :learn:


This is why I have made it my mission to keep presenting the views of others.
It is not about my views here.....After all I am basically a googan who is obsessed about fishing, resulting in a few lucky nights and weekends out there...:bucktooth:
And I know I rub some folks the wrong way.....I am well-known on the internet, not for my fishing reports,, but my strong opinions.....:kooky: :laugh: :argue:
As I get older I try to choose my words more carefully, but I would rather be honest than phony. Anyone who knows me well knows that you can ask me any time for honest opinions and advice, and I will give it.



Keeping the focus off of me is a good thing...as I want folks to know that there always anglers out there who are vastly superior to me in terms of knowledge and experience......


** Most important point....that these other anglers are worth listening to....and their words of caution should be heeded before it's too late.....:learn:

[DarkSkies]

I know Conservation and learning about this resource is not appealing to many, and that it is boring if you have an interest in only catching and bragging about big fish......

But it's still important to try to educate those who don't know, one angler at a time.
That's what we try to do on www.stripersandanglers.com (http://www.stripersandanglers.com). and you have seen me try to do, on other sites.....

If anyone gives me credit for anything, I hope it is as a tireless advocate for Striped Bass, and for Fishing Access.....
I will continue to try my best to show folks why that's important....http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/icons/icon3.png










** As soon as I get a chance I'll try to add more to the apple tree story. I know that silly story may get folks to pay attention....:laugh:
Thanks for reading, and the kind words.....
Also remember to thank those folks like Finchaser, and the many others here who have done much more for striped bass than I have...:clapping: :clapping: :HappyWave:

[clamchucker]

r old fishermen, who have fished regularly and consistently in the salt for all their lives, you will get a sense that there are less fish.......although we as fishermen disagree on many things, this is the recurrent theme each time I meet and interview another fisherman from this age range.

So....
Again I submit that these guys, fishing as much as they do,,,,know more than the scientists.
When folks try to shoot that down, and discount that, I believe they are being irrational. :learn:


This is why I have made it my mission to keep presenting the views of others.
** Most important point....that these other anglers are worth listening to....and their words of caution should be heeded before it's too late.....:learn:

I am in the upper range of that age group. I have seen quite a bit, from the incredible abundance of the weakfish in Delaware Bay to the decline. The high numbers of striped bass and the decline. I remember being up at Cape Cod. I think it was back in the 1970's. Fishermen were catching and taking huge numbers of the beach in these wheeled carts that were similar to modified wheelbarrows with plywood on the sides. Those were the commercial fishermen and they did a lot of damage. Of course we recreational fishermen were fishing right along side them and although we were allowed less we still kept a lot of big bass. In those days it was mostly the fault of the commercials because there were more of them.

Now there are more of us. I remember before the moratorium the striped bass limit was 18 inches and after that it was 36". I would like to see that size returned to 36" with no slot limit because there are more of this. You cannot restrict the numbers of folks who will fish for them so the best restrictions would be on either the size or the catch limit.
There is no need to feel apologetic about discussing this dark skies. I gave you permission to report on things I had told you. Feel free to continue doing that. I don't have the energy for the fight anymore. I would like to see these beautiful fish available to all fishermen without losing them again like we did in the 1980's. This will not happen unless the laws are changed. Conservation measures are admirable but unless you make it so that everyone has to follow the same way it will not work. Keep up the good work folks.

[CharlieTuna]

Good read gentlemen. I remember it being much different when I lived in NJ. Remember that 18" limit as well. Crazy times, how much meat could you get from an 18" bass but that was how things were.

[finchaser]

Good read gentlemen. I remember it being much different when I lived in NJ. Remember that 18" limit as well. Crazy times, how much meat could you get from an 18" bass but that was how things were.

Not much but more than a 14" weakfish or 12" sea bass and they sure did eat great. Bass 18 to 24 " were prime eating all whitemeat. IMO big bass which are almost in the bluefish category in taste now from feeding on bunker.

[jigfreak]

Now that you're all thoroughly bored.....I'll simplify this, to make it easier to understand for everyone.......I'll fill it in with more segments as I get a chance...and try to tie all the key groups in, and how they relate to bass and this apple tree....hope you enjoy...thanks for reading.....:HappyWave:








Striped Bass and the Apple Tree.... © DarkSkies 2013

**The analogy here that I am trying to get across is that of a huge apple tree, filled with striped bass instead of apples...

There was once a giant apple tree in King Neptune's backyard......:)
At that time the land was populated with simple and respectful folk...we'll call them the Earth People.....they were basically farmers and subsistence people, living off the land.

The tree was an apple tree, but there was something different about this apple tree. Apples did not grow from it. Instead, it was the only tree in the yard that grew striped bass. Not just any striped bass, but the Atlantic Striped bass, one of the greatest and most prized gamefish on the East Coast.

When people first heard of this striped bass tree, many were not interested. They said: "Why would we want those fish when we have cows and chickens to eat?"
Eventually, some of the cows died, and people wanted to try other things to sustain themselves. They grew wheat, which they made into bread. They grew corn and vegetables, which they enjoyed as well. They grew potatoes, carrots, and tomatoes, big juicy tomatoes dripping with flavor. :drool:

The thing that was missing was the protein.
Some started to gather around the striped bass tree, and saw that there were millions of striped bass, there for the taking. :bigeyes: Some grabbed a bass or 2 that was hanging like low lying fruit. They brought it home, put it on the fire, and cooked it. It was good. Yum, yum.


I'm having trouble understanding this dark. You can bake apples into apple pie or apple sauce. Kind of hard to bake a pie with striped bass.:rolleyes: :HappyWave:

[cowherder]

^^^^:huh:Umm jigfreak I think he was using the bass in apple tree as a metaphor or something. Don't think he wanted people to take that literally. Really dude!

[DarkSkies]

Thanks cowherder.....I believe jigfreak was just busting balls....no worries.....:thumbsup: :HappyWave:
I am trying to make this colorful and interesting, as most folks find these discussions terribly boring.....:boring:





Striped Bass and the Apple Tree.... Part 2... © DarkSkies 2013

The people had some harsh years, as mentioned....and some crops continued to fail.
More and more were going to the striped bass tree. As mentioned most would rather have eaten meat, but their friends and neighbors were saying: "If you are hungry just go to the Striped Bass Tree....it is big and plentiful and there are lots of them...look at me! I just brought home a wheelbarrow of them, enough to feed my family for 3 months!" You should go too, there are enough striped bass for everyone.

They ate from the striped bass tree....and it was good....:)

There was a group of outsiders who heard about the simple folk who were feeding their families from this tree. These outsiders had big boats.

They said to themselves - why don't we all go to the striped bass tree with our boats, drop our nets, shake the tree, and that way we can get more bass by working together, and share in this bounty just like the other folks. http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/icons/icon3.png

Let it be written, let it be done....and they did it...

They were successful beyond their wildest expectations. Not only were they able to prevent any striped bass falling from the tree and going bad, but they were also able to shake the tree to get extra striped bass....all enjoyed this bounty for a few years.....


Then, after a few cold winters, the townspeople reaized the tree could not handle all the people eating off of it...they began to see that each time they went to the tree, they would bring less stripers home.

There was a lot discussion back and forth...
It was finally decided by the groups who owned the land where the tree was, that there would have to be some way to limit the harvesting of bass from the tree...they called it a Moratorium on Striped Bass..http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/images/icons/icon9.png

[basshunter]

Shaking the trees for striped bass lol funny stuff.