Spring Striped Bass in the bays where do they come from?

[porgy75]

I was reading something the other day and they were saying the spring bass in bays like the raritan come up from somewhere as part of the migration. I was in a tackle shop on the weekend getting some things for striped bass opening day. There were some older guys in there who were talking and I eavesdropped on the convo. They said a lot of the bass caught in first few weeks in the bays in the spring are already here.
That made more sense to me as there are a lot of deep channels and harbors by perth amboy and arthur kill. Still it is confusing for me that guys are talking about bass coming in to the bay, and these guys in the shop were saying they are already here. Can anyone help me understand this better? thanks

[baitstealer]

I would like to hear about this too. Too much confusing info on the net. One says stripers are down. Another says the striper numbers are up. How do you make sense of it all?

[ledhead36]

Many of the small bass are already here. Anyone who says they have to come in to the bays probably doesn't fish the bays that much. The bigger bass come in on certain weeks every year, but bass up to 15 lbs are here. Same pattern. Think it about it this way, if the season opens on march 1 and within 2 weeks of that guys are catching bass, do you think they made the trip from down south in those 2 short weeks?

[clamchucker]

Ledhead made some good points. The reason bass fishing was closed originally in the bay areas was because when the bays froze over in earlier times you could walk out and the bass and other holdover fish would be schooled up in the deepest holes. They were very concentrated and getting them was too easy.

As for the Arthur Kill, porgy, when I was younger many years ago I my uncle worked in the Kill at one of the shipping areas. He would take us up there in the winter sometimes and we would use fresh pieces of herring and drop them to the bottom. The fellows would regularly catch bass to 20 lbs. This would all depend on the water temperature. If it was a few nice sunny days we would catch a few. Cold overcast days and there would be none caught. When the temperature is 40 and below, striped bass go into a stasis. I view it as a semi-hibernation. They lie suspended in the water and because the water is cold their metabolism slows down considerably. They don't need to eat as much and are not as active.

There are a lot of bass that winter in the Hudson River below the mountain near Croton Point in deep trenches. They have similar behavior and are barely active. Another reason to keep the commercial fishermen out of the river because they are so concentrated. Back to the Arthur Kill. There are a lot of very deep channels where the water is a few degreess warmer than the rest of the bay. The bass sit in these deep channels almost on the bottom.

When the season opens in NJ on March 1 that usually coincides with better weather. If the winter has not been too harsh you will have folks catching bass on the shoreline within a few days. As the water in the bay gradually warms the bass move out of the deeper harbors and channels and start moving around on the flats. Give it a few sunny days and the mud warms up. This stirs the creatures up the marine worms and small mollusks. As they become active the bass move from mud flat to mud flat looking for an easy meal.

There are literally thousands of bass that winter in the channels and harbors of the Arthur Kill and that area. Any discussion of spring bass migration that omits these is not an informed discussion. There are also bass that winter in the Hackensack and Raritan river deep channels. There are bass that winter in the Maurice and Mullica river and in the deep harbors of the Delaware River. Any discussion of early spring bass must take these into account too. Those overwintering fish are the ones that anglers encounter in the first weeks of March and thus an important part of the tally.

Also, it all depends on the winter temperatures and how much snow there is coming down the Hudson and into the New York Bight. Down the Delaware from the cold mountains too. Less cold water and snow melt and ice equals a faster activity level for the early spring bass. The migrating bass, which contain sme Hudson and mixes of Chesapeake and Delaware bass, winter further south anywhere from Delaware to North Carolina depending on how cold the winter is. The colder the winter is the further south they tend to move.

The migrating Hudson bass that many anglers like to see are bigger and will generally not come up to the Raritan area until the later weeks of March.
This is interesting because you will hear of the bite in the Delaware River starting up around that time too. It does support the notion that some of these bass are traveling together in a mixed bunch, and tend to break off into different estuaries as they pass by. The first stragglers enter the Chesapeake bay toward the beginning to the middle of March as well with the rest of the migrators moving slowly but steadily along the route stopping to feed if they are distracted by large schools of bait like bunker and herring.

Barnegat bay is different because it is a shallower bay. Over the years it has gotten even shallower. I feel it would have been a good idea to leave that new inlet where it was. You know you can't tell the Army Corps of Engineers anything. The closure rules were good for the Barnegat Bay as well because any fish in that bay have tended to congregate near the power plant. The rest of the bay can freeze solid at times and can not really support fish in a very cold winter. They all gather up in that area of warm water and are almost penned in by the temperature line being as extreme as it is. Great Bay is different because of the Mullica River. The deeper channels of the river also hold some resident bass in the winter.

When the ice starts to melt in the spring and the bay warms up those fish normally leave the Forked River power plant within a few weeks. At that time you will start to hear of bass being caught in some of the early season hot spots and some of the inlets. This depends significantly on the water temperatures and amount of sunny days you have.

[fishinmission78]

Excellent read chamchucker. Good luck this year and good health to you.

[cowherder]

Clamchucker that was awesome. Learned a lot from that thanks!

[basshunter]

^^^^:clapping: Ditto thanks ledhead and clamchucker.

[VSdreams]

Very informative read thanks for sharing

[storminsteve]

Awesome info thank you gentlemen!

[vpass]

Thanks for sharing, I Enjoyed reading the above.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[finchaser]

Can't believe we have a birds and the bees post on where do Striped bass come from which i'm sure on Dark can answer:ROFLMAO

Great Post Clam chucker:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

[porgy75]

Thank you so much for your responces gentlemen. I learned a lot.

[seamonkey]

Excellent read chamchucker. Good luck this year and good health to you.

:clapping:That was an awesome post clamchucker. Thank you for sharing that, and hope your health and luck are good this season.

[porgy75]

I don't know if you could answer this or maybe someone else could clamchucker. A guy who seems to know a lot was aaying all winter that there were a lot of very small stripers. He said they were the hudson tribe or something like that. The ones like a "shiny new dime". I haven't caught a lot of bass this year but certainly have not seen all the small fish he was talking about. We must be fishing in different oceans. some of the stuff you read online sounds so out there is is almost like people make this stuff up as they go along.
Clamchucker thank you for the great advice you and finchaser should write a book someday I would buy it.

What I would like to know is why people were talking about these small bass and if they were part of the hudson bass where are they now? Thanks in advance guys!

[jigfreak]

We must be fishing in different oceans. some of the stuff you read online sounds so out there is is almost like people make this stuff up as they go along.

What I would like to know is why people were talking about these small bass and if they were part of the hudson bass where are they now? Thanks in advance guys!



I read here many times that they're all dead. I think finchaser said it. these are not my words but I agree with them. So true the amount of schoolies that used to be around is nothing in comparison in how it used to be. There were some in nomoco in the winter for about 2 weeks in December and last week of November. These were very small. Don't think they were Hudson "stock" as they were tiny some 8-12". Have to be first year class to be that small and somehow it doesn't make sense that they were hudson stock.
I have read some of the same posts online. There are lots of windbags out there who may have read a book 10 years ago and are quoting from it but as for current knowledge they are lacking. my .02. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. There is one guy who is now an expert. Just became a moderator. He is like 22 and been fishing 2 years. All of a sudden he is the oracle of striped bass. Astounding how someone fishing 2 years is such a font of knowledge.

[Monty]

There is one guy who is now an expert. Just became a moderator. He is like 22 and been fishing 2 years. All of a sudden he is the oracle of striped bass. Astounding how someone fishing 2 years is such a font of knowledge.
Its the generation of entitlement.
This guy was entitled to be an expert, its as simple as that......or as stupid as that...
I agree that the amount of resident bass is a tiny fraction of what it used to be.

[DarkSkies]

I don't know if you could answer this or maybe someone else could clamchucker. A guy who seems to know a lot was aaying all winter that there were a lot of very small stripers. He said they were the hudson tribe or something like that. The ones like a "shiny new dime". I haven't caught a lot of bass this year but certainly have not seen all the small fish he was talking about. We must be fishing in different oceans. some of the stuff you read online sounds so out there is is almost like people make this stuff up as they go along.
Clamchucker thank you for the great advice you and finchaser should write a book someday I would buy it.

What I would like to know is why people were talking about these small bass and if they were part of the hudson bass where are they now? Thanks in advance guys!


I read here many times that they're all dead. I think finchaser said it. these are not my words but I agree with them. So true the amount of schoolies that used to be around is nothing in comparison in how it used to be. There were some in nomoco in the winter for about 2 weeks in December and last week of November. These were very small. Don't think they were Hudson "stock" as they were tiny some 8-12". Have to be first year class to be that small and somehow it doesn't make sense that they were hudson stock.
I have read some of the same posts online. There are lots of windbags out there who may have read a book 10 years ago and are quoting from it but as for current knowledge they are lacking. my .02. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. .


Porgy, I'm trying to choose my words carefully with my answer here.
I maintain many relationships and friendships with folks in all parts of the fishing world. I kind of have an idea where you might have gotten that info, and as diplomatically as I can, want to convey that things are not always as they seem, and at the same time not make it seem like I'm criticizing the person who may have said it.

Those fish that many of us noticed here in November and December were first-year fish, as jigfreak so intuitively surmised. :thumbsup: :HappyWave:
They were NOT naturally born Hudson fish, but were raised artificially, and got into the ecosystem by accident after Sandy. By some accounts there were up to 500,000 that were accidentally released.

**As such, they are NOT an indication of the health of the Hudson stock/biomass.
I'm sorry I can't go into more detail, but I promised some folks I would not say more than I'm saying here......







When I want to learn something, I look at the source of the info, be it published, online, or a conversation between 2 fishermen.....
There are folks here, that fish twice a day, and are sometimes looking for fish, 3 times a day. There are folks here who actively fish for bass all year round, not just during the months of May, June, and November. Without offending anyone in the fishing world. I would say to you, that finding folks who are actively fishing, catching, and who do it frequently, or have done it frequently, would be a good group of people to look to, to learn about striped bass...and one that you could learn a lot from.


Hope this helps, and my words have not caused anyone to be offended. :HappyWave: :learn:

[DarkSkies]

Raritan Bay and NY Bight, including RB estuaries (Raritan River/ Hackensack River system, Arthur Kill, Staten Island) Spring 2014 -
(March - July)


I know this area better than many of the other areas I have fished, simply because I grew up fishing these places as they were closer. At different times I have probably walked and sunk, in most creeks and mud bogs in that area trapping killies and digging for tape and other worms. I would be embarassed to report the number of shoes I have lost wading around out there in the muck, and close calls I had when I couldn't get out of the mud.....
I have been fishing that area aggressively and consistently for the last 25 years......from boat, kayak, and land......

There are others who have more experience than me, and I defer to them when I need to learn more...such as the old timers who sparked my interest with numerous examples of bass spawning in the Raritan river decades ago.......




The Assessment Spring 2014:
(Note, the observations below are generalizations based on my experience, observations, and interviews with hundreds of anglers)
There is always a case where someone's experience doesn't fit what generally happens. Not looking to argue with anyone here....just looking to educate and raise awareness.....of what most seasoned anglers are (generally) seeing......


1. Later start - Later start to season because of colder Winter. This harsh winter probably damaged a lot of the early season forage population, but not as bad as 2013, when forage damage from Sandy was more marked and severe. I believe in 2013, grass shrimp didn't show up in many places until June. As of this date in 2014, there are very few grass shrimp and spearing in the usual places. They are there in the shallowest estuaries, but many of the other places are barren.

2. Dirty Water Bass - The early season is traditionally marked by anglers catching resident fish, which winter over in the Arthur Kill and other deep water ports of the lower Hudson river. You can ID these fish because they (usually) have a darker color and look "muddy" at times....hence the name "dirty water bass" and other names they have been called.
Every year, these bass are (generally) caught first by land anglers as the fish wake up from lethargy and start to roam the shallow water flats. These fish are available by the thousands.

In 2014, the numbers caught in this area, were only in the hundreds...
Boat anglers and others didn't start catching bigger fish regularly until April 17, 2014...
If the bass are so healthy, Where were these resident bass that are there every year?


3. Shallow water - Anglers usually start catching these (early) resident fish as the mud flats on the southern side of the bay heats up, near clam beds where the worms become active. For most years that (generally) means that the Southern side of the bay heats up first. The Staten Island and northern areas are generally closer to channels and deeper water, which (generally) means the bite turns on later in that deeper and colder water.




4. Find bait and find fish - any of the above general observations can be negated by large quantities of bait. In the spring it's usually large pods of bunker. To this day it amazes me that so few have an understanding of the bunker, or how they behave, other than asking others where to find them. When you begin to understand them better, you begin to see how it's all inter-related. We had an unusually warm winter back in 2011 when bunker were in some of the bays and harbors in February. Generally, they don't migrate from the south that early, but by March and April you can find them if you are willing to move around and look.

Generally, they come in with the flood tide, and leave with the ebb. The bunker you see are migrating as well. The ones you see today might not be the same ones you saw yesterday. Bunker also sometimes sit in deeper water in the channels and marinas, and only rise to feed when conditions are optimal.

I am amazed at the amount of times I'm out there crossing the channels in a kayak, and the bunker are just beginning to rise to the surface (boat traffic can also put them down). A Captain will blow right by me with binocs, looking for bunker, not realizing he just passed by the mother lode when he crossed that channel.

As mentioned, bass will follow large schools of bunker. If there are only a few big bass under them you might never know those bass are there. Hence the complaint from many who go out for a day of fishing "Well we saw all these bunker pods but nothing under them, very frustrating"

** A. Also, if there is an exceptionally large body of bunker, fish will follow them anyway, and the previous observations don't always apply, because the action is then dominated by the bunker.
B. When a large body of bunker leaves an area for the night, it tends to draw out most of the fish with it. Another frustration experienced by Capts and all fishermen. Understanding this, and fish behavior, is key to predicting where they could be the next day (Hint - bunker usually feed into the wind)

[DarkSkies]

5. Structural changes and fish location changes - this is so important I decided to put it by itself. Many folks out there are resistant to this logic, instead falsely using it as being the reason for "seeing the most bass I have ever seen!"
Hint - the bass are now more concentrated, in a lesser # of areas. :learn:


Why?
A. Sandy's storm devastated some bay estuaries. Some shoreline and creek areas still have not recovered and are devoid of life.
B. Many creeks that used to hold small forage and had clam beds a short distance from the mouth now have these clam beds covered by silt, which has greatly decreased the worm and clam beds in the bay.

C. Old Orchard Lighthouse and Sandy destruction - This was a significant event. If you are a seasoned fisherman or Capt you know why. The destruction of the lighthouse immediately distributed those rocks throughout the area, increasing the surface area and structure by up to 300%.
This area was traditionally known by most Capts to hold fish, and the bigger fish that came into the bay.
The old pattern was that, for weeks at a time after the spawn., bass would come down the Hudson, and sit and feed at old orchard before moving on. Sometimes they were there for weeks at a time. Many of the bigger fish above 30# came from this general area.

Since Sandy, this area has become prime hunting ground for bigger bass.

The pattern has shifted to one where they now show up, Before, and After, the spawn.
They are not always there, and no one is guaranteed a fish....but if you know and understand fish behavior, you would see that with the decreased % of other areas that have traditionally held fish....this Old Orchard area would
rise to the forefront.....more crabs, sea bass, black fish, and other forage fish than ever before....divers will confirm this.....the area is loaded with bait for most of the year.....


**And...it is part of the pattern that has changed and allows some mis-informed folks, to think there are more bass, when closer observation reveals that not to be true.....

















If you only fish from a boat, you know the names of usual places that hold bass and other fish in Raritan Bay....
* Flynns knoll and Romer shoals (clam beds)
* Old Orchard (up to 300% in structure area since lighthouse was destroyed)
* Round Shoal, and the entrance area to the Arthur Kill
* Mount Loretto and the shipping channels that graze the SI shoreline there
* Great Kills Harbor and the bass waiting a short ride outside.....(and sometimes in the harbor itself)
* Navy Pier to Keyport / the Belford clam beds and other clam beds in that area (The Navy pier will often hold fish when they are scarce in other areas. The channels are the gateway into the bay for migrating fish....the clam beds in that area can be confirmed by a conversation with any commercial clammer.)


There are a few more...but my point is this....a good Capt knows when these areas are most productive, and why...
Anyone who wants fish from a boat, you know the names of usual places that hold bass and other fish in Raritan Bay....
A good Capt, if they concentrated on those areas mentioned above, and fish are in the bay area....would most likely catch one, if they really worked the above areas thoroughly....
Someone who claims there are more bass than ever before, without recognizing the changes mentioned..... is either:
ignorant, arrogantly in denial, or has a hidden financial incentive to mis-represent the status of the bass #s to folks out there.



To Recap, for the RB/ NY Bight area (generally speaking)

1. Less shoreline structure and feeding area since Sandy
2. Higher concentration of the same fish in the areas that do hold food, with some becoming more prominent than before.
3. Offshore migration theories hold no water here, as fish must enter the bays in similar ways every year and travel the same routes to spawn.
4. Notably less quantities of larger fish. (the 20# bass has become the new "Large" Bass)
5. Significant gaps in year classes of other sized fish.

[clamchucker]

Good analysis and bullet points Dark Skies.

[clamchucker]

To add to that I would say there are a lot of small stripers that winter in major deepwater harbors all along the coast. Any commercial harbor or port usually has some very deep channels and moorings for the large ships. Stripers first caught in the Hudson winter in a trench above the GWB.
Stipers in the bays come from the deepwater port areas...Phila, Baltimore, NY Harbor etc. The first reports of striped bass are those fish that become active as the water warms up and they roam the shallow flats looking for food.