All,
Just wanted to let everyone know the New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing, other groups and individuals are still working on this issue.
Stay tuned ....
John
Printable View
All,
Just wanted to let everyone know the New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing, other groups and individuals are still working on this issue.
Stay tuned ....
John
Thanks, rpsurf. I was just talking to a good friend of mine the other day about this. Appreciate the update.
Thanks
Thanks for the update.
Bump for the petition.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/shorehamban/
thanks RP
Interesting article in Newsday today. Too bad the Town Board has banned fishing at Shoreham Beach in spite of the law and PTD.
Stay tuned ....
<<Newsday 2/22/09
NEWSDAY Feb 22 2009
Michael R. Ebert
February 22, 2009
At Cedar Beach in Mount Sinai, there is a playground and nearby is a sign that reads "private beach ahead." I have heard mothers scold children who crossed that apparent property line, but I believe that either the state or the Town of Brookhaven owns the beach within a few feet of the high tide mark and anyone can stroll the beach within that parameter. Can you check the law?
- Barbara Ludwig-Cull, Port Jefferson Station
OUR reader is correct. In New York State, the public may walk along underwater lands and the "foreshore" - the stretch of beach subject to the ebb and flow of the tides - of privately owned beaches without penalty.
The principle is outlined in the Public Trust Doctrine, a common-law legal precedent that says states hold legal title to lands under tidewater and to navigable waterways in trust for the public's benefit.
"It's actually an issue that comes up a lot," said Steven Resler, a coastal resource specialist for the Department of State's coastal management program. "Traditionally, the 'seaweed line' has been interpreted as the boundary between private property and public trust lands."
According to the law, when the foreshore is covered by the tides the public may use the water for "boating, bathing, fishing, recreation and other lawful purposes," Resler said. When the tide is out, the public may pass and repass over the foreshore as a means of access to reach the water for these purposes, and may also lounge and recline on foreshore lands.
At Cedar Beach, the Crest Hollow Beach Owners Association owns the "upland" - the stretch of beach above the seaweed line - but the public has the right to "traverse the foreshore," Resler said.
Town spokesman Kevin Molloy said similar privately owned beaches exist in Mastic Beach and Rocky Point.
>>
>>
:clapping: Good post RP. Our rights seem to mean less and less these days.
We need to keep sticking up for our rights. Don't let "other people" do all the work it's important to get involved.
It's good that it is still in the news, and not pushed to the side. We all have to stand up for what is right.
I sent the below letter to two of the local papers, The North Shore Sun printed it in todays edition and it is also in The Times Beacon Record. Both papers censored it a bit in a different way. They took out this section:
<<The areas and nation’s economy has crumbled underneath the feet of the politicians who are elected to lead this area and country. Every day the politicians reach into our pockets one more time to help bail out another company and add more to the government that has already failed us. We pay tremendously high taxes to live in Brookhaven Town and Long Island to use such resources as parks and beaches. Yet as our jobs are lost, as our 401ks disappear, one of the things we enjoy most, a day on the beach with our fellow fisherman and children has been taken away from us by the Town of Brookhaven Town Board. >>
Here is the whole letter I wrote :
<<As the winter starts coming to an end, fisherman across Brookhaven Town and Long Island ready themselves for the upcoming fishing season at the area beaches. Fisherman have been fishing at Shoreham beach for years, but because of the fishing ban instituted last year at the Town of Brookhaven Shoreham Beach by the Town Board, as it stands now , people will not be fishing there this year. In spite of thousands of letters, emails, phone calls, efforts from fishing organizations, swimming organizations, local business groups and meetings with members of the Brookhaven town board, the town board still has not lifted the fishing ban at Shoreham Beach.
The Public Trust Doctrine guarantees people their rights to the beaches. The ban of fishing at Shoreham Beach violates the Public Trust Doctrine. New York State recognizes the PTD and promotes beach access in New York. New Jersey, Connecticut and other states also recognize this and have programs to promote access to the beaches via the Public Trust Doctrine. Why does the Town of Brookhaven not recognize the Public Trust Doctrine? With the economy in dire straits, do the residents of Brookhaven want the town to use their hard earned tax dollars to fight a legal battle over the rights of people to access Shoreham Beach? The town could be spending taxpayers own money to keep them off the beaches they pay taxes for!
As businesses across Long Island suffer, local businesses suffer also due to this fishing ban. Rocky Point Fishing Stop has been a responsible business in Rocky Point for 35 years, surviving a fire, reduced beach access and down swings in the economy. Now as their business suffers due to this fishing ban at Shoreham Beach, they contemplate going out of business or moving out of the town of Brookhaven. Employees at Rocky Point Fishing Stop are losing their jobs or are having their hours reduced. I thought the current movement in the country is to create jobs and stimulate the economy, not run responsible businesses out of business or out of town.
The people who use the beaches and live in the area deserve clean, trouble free beaches. If there are people who are not using the beaches responsibly and breaking the law, then I am all for enforcing the laws and penalizing the offenders. But to single out fisherman and ban fishing at these beaches is analogous to banning driving because some people are speeding or running red lights. Brookhaven Town recently used tax payer money to hire Park Rangers. If there are law enforcement issues at Shoreham Beach, assign the officers to this beach to enforce the laws.
The areas and nation’s economy has crumbled underneath the feet of the politicians who are elected to lead this area and country. Every day the politicians reach into our pockets one more time to help bail out another company and add more to the government that has already failed us. We pay tremendously high taxes to live in Brookhaven Town and Long Island to use such resources as parks and beaches. Yet as our jobs are lost, as our 401ks disappear, one of the things we enjoy most, a day on the beach with our fellow fisherman and children has been taken away from us by the Town of Brookhaven Town Board.
This ban cannot be allowed to stand. Fisherman and non-fisherman alike who live in such places as Shoreham, Rocky Point, all of Brookhaven town, Long Island and beyond are standing up for their rights and will continue to fight until the ban is lifted. Hopefully the politicians soon realize the wants and rights of their constituents and lift this ban.
John Russell
Long Island, New York>>
I bet one of the lawyers or editors had them take that out, or they deemed it too inflammatory. I found that the most emphatic part of your letter, but papers always censor anyway for "space" reasons.What is it we hear all the time about newspapers championing freedom of speech? It's interesting that both papers didn't like that part. :rolleyes:
That was a well thought and written letter, John. There's anger and passion about not fishing there, I saw that when I went up there to that meeting. The property owners up there don't care about any of that. But people will pay attention to a well thought-out and clearly written letter.
It may not move mountains, but it's enough to sway some public opinion and maybe get some more people involved in supporting this. Fantastic letter, great job keepin it in the spotlight, man. :clapping::clapping:
Very nice, RP.:clapping::clapping:
:clapping::clapping::clapping: Way to go, John!
:thumbsup:for RP, great letter.
That is an amazing letter. Let's hope now more people will listen.
Mark Lesko and Tim Mazzei will be guest speakers at the Next Meeting of the Rocky Point Civic Association. The meeting is March 5 @ 7:30 p.m. at the VFW Hall and open to public.
These are the two candidates for the Special Election on March 31, 2009 for Brookhaven Town Supervisor.
If you are a Brookhaven resident, try to attend the meeting and have your voice heard.
It was good to actually see Jane Bonner. She was really getting upset. She said she is trying to work out a solution, but I still enjoyed giving her my two cents. Good to see you BassBudda, Rpsurf, Frankiesurf, DarkSkies. I would guess about half the people who showed up were fishermen
Great work guys, I couldnt make it , but Tom Farrel who is the secretary for the New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing was there and spoke. He filled me in on all the details.
Jane Bonner is trying to cover her butt, she is not working on a solution, the only solution she understands is the possibility of her getting voted out of office.
Almost 1/2 the people there were fisherman, that is awesome !!
The next one of these meetings is March 18th in Shoreham. We really need to push hard to have a strong turnout. Lets make 75% of the people there be fisherman. When I found out exactly where, will let everyone know.
Meeting notes:
It was great to see all the fishing support. About 50 people total, maybe 20 of them fishermen. I sat at a table with Eisey and Frankiesurf, good to meet you guys. :HappyWave: Also got a chance to meet Tom Farrell of the NYCRF, and some of the other fishermen.
Mark Lesko and Tim Mazzei introduced themselves, and spoke of their goals. When it came time for questions, Eisey asked Mark Lesko, who has a background as a US attorney, what his position was on the Access and Public trust issues for Shoreham.
Mr Lesko
Attachment 5445
Mr Mazzei
Attachment 5446
I feel that Mr Lesko didn't answer the question directly but danced around it instead. As an attorney, I felt he should have anticipated he would be asked a question about the Public Trust and could have given a more direct answer as to his position.To his credit, Mr Lesko did say he was meeting with the NYCRF group next week and will look at all the options.
There was a similar scenario with Mr. Mazzei. He did make a joke about fishing a long time ago, to break the ice. Another fisherman asked him about his position, and I didn't feel a direct answer was given either. However, he did say he would try and work something out.
I hope they can actually do this, as the election is March 31, and voters need time to make up their minds.
It was good to hear the concerns of the residents other than the issues they have had with fishing. For the most part, I seemed to hear complaints about littering and litter as a main concern.
This ties in with the way the conditions at the beach were described, with "a large amount of used condoms" broken beer bottles, pieces of burned wood, and bare fishhooks, being among their concerns. Anyone with kids knows the first three things probably were generated by the local children hanging out down there.
Something should be done to stop blaming those things on the fishermen, it's beginning to sound like a broken record already.http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...cons/icon3.gif
Just some clarifications, Tom is with the New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing, not the RFA. Also, at the meeting Lesko agreed to meet , not Mazzei.
Thanks for the report and for making the long trip to support the cause !!!
OK, John, I edited it thanks, I was a little fuzzy at 2am when I first started to write this down. :embarassed::D
At the end of the meeting, they opened up the floor for a few minutes for questions from fishermen. Here are some of the questions and answers. The quotes may not be verbatim, I was writing as fast as I could to take notes. :D Anyone has any different recollections or corrections, please let me know and I'll edit. :HappyWave:
Tom Farrell:
I found him to be a very effective speaker. He was upset that access has not been permitted yet, but he conducted himself professionally, and did not back down from his position.
He said "The US recreational fishing industry generates $60 billion in Revenues every year..The north Shore has approximatly 150 miles of shoreline, yet access in only 14 points...it's sad to see Stan Hentschel's business suffering, and fishermen are forced to go to Riverhead to fish. We fishermen have been treated badly, and we will not stand for it anymore!" :clapping:
Jerry Wilson: " I am 72 years old, a retired vet, and I only want a place to fish. I fill a garbage bag with other peoples trash every time I go there to fish, and take it out with me. We are being penalized by the behavior of some jerks who make a bad name for everyone.
Also, there is no way for a handicapped person to fish the beach. When the access was closed, the people in charge told me to go to the pier to fish. As a fisherman, I can tell you that the fish don't know they are ONLY supposed to let us catch them at the pier!!!!!"" :laugh: :thumbsup:
Guy at table in front of us, addressed to Tom Mazzei:
"Will you look into increased access if elected?"
Mr Mazzei: "Yes I will look at that, in coordination with Jane Bonner."
This bought groans from the fishermen there, as we all seem to have heard that story before, over and over, with little in the way of results.
Tom Farrell asking a question
Attachment 5447
Eisey asking a question
Attachment 5448
Jerry Wilson asking a question
Attachment 5449
Thank you Darkskies for making your trip all the way out to long Island for the meeting last night. Thank you to everyone else as well. I realize everyone has a busy life and it is difficult to make time for these meetings.
As already by rpsurf5 I am not with the RFA I am a board member of the New York Coalition of Recreational Fishing. I was able to directly speak to Mr. Lesko last evening however I was not offered the opportunity to speak to Mr. Mazzei while he had the floor. One thing I really liked about Mr. Lesko is that he acknowledged to being personal friends with a key member of the NYCRF and that he looks forward to a sitting down and meeting with us. It was especially nice that Miss Bonner got to hear this up close and personal. She did not look to pleased. In fact when she was speaking she was showing that it was quite personal and became extremely emotional. She kept claiming that she is not to blame and tried to pass the buck often. She referred to Suffolk County quite often. However when an angler directly asked her "if she is not to blame then who should they contact at teh county". She clearly stated she did not want anyone to contact anyone else in this matter. She stated that it is her problem and she will resolve it. In my opinion it is quite clear that the letter writing campaign is working and she does not want to look like a fool with her superiors. That is why she does not want any more people to know. So I suggest to all of you to keep on writing, calling and emailing everyone regrding this issue. For if the Town of Brookhaven gets away with this violation of our rights it will spread like an infectious disease everywhere. We can not let them discriminate against fisherman any longer.
So you all know I was able to personally hand deliver Mr. Mazzei and Mr. Lesko a letter and a questionnaire in regards to there stance on recreational fishing within the Town of Brookhaven. The results of their replies will be published in the Long Island Fisherman and also in the North Shore Sun.
I will post much more soon. I did earlier and for some reason errors popeed up and zapped it all out.
Thank you all for your support.
Tight Lines,
Tom Farrell
New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing
Secretary
:clapping:Great job there, Tom, you said it better than I could have, and in a lot less words. ;)
I feel the best part of that meeting was the end where a gentleman asked if there were any fishermen that had questions, and they spent about 15 minutes addressing them. I agree with what you said about Ms Bonner. If she is an elected official, she is rsponsible to all constituents, which includes fishermen.
There were a lot of good comments made about moving forward and resolving this, and unfortunately as you said it seemed there was some passing of the blame as well.
The way I heard it at the meeting, officials were trying to use the statute that designates "bathing only, no fishing or boating" to apply to Shoreham beach. I thought that was kind of lame. This statute only came to light when there became an issue of closing the beach. Prior to that it was never enforced.
There are many laws on the books that are never enforced because they have outlived the original purpose, or were too restrictive when they were created. In some places, having sex with your wife on Sundays, or having oral sex, is illegal. Of course these are never enforced.
In the same way, the archaic Shoreham/Suffolk law restricting boating and fishing from that beach could be changed or repealed by motivated legislators who are elected by us, their constituents.
Using the law as a scapegoat for the real underlying reasons, and saying "My hands are tied" is not the answer.
I really hope you make headway when you meet with them. I applaud that you gave them written questionaires for their positions. That way the positions are out there for everyone to examine, and that's how government should be.
There was a decent amount of time allotted at the end to fishermen asking questions. Jane Bonner responded. It was the first time I had seen her in public. Honestly, I had a poor opinion of her because of the buck passing that seemed to be happening. I have been to 3 meetings up there already, and it doesn't seem like much is getting done.
Some of her comments:
On litter:
"One of the main concerns was litter. There were many used condoms, broken beer bottles, and fishing hooks. People were living on the beach and sleeping on the bluffs."
On the "no fishing or boating" legacy statute on the books:
"This came about because we had problems there. The Law Dept, Parks Dept, & Town Supervisors Dept is responsible for the research, not me. I was left with no choice. If you think I made that decision lightly, you are wrong!"
On the Public Trust Doctrine:
"You are not stopped from gtting on the beach at the high tide mark, but you can be denied access in the areas where this touches the private property of property owners. The law is shades of grey. There are attorneys who will argue this on both sides"
On resolving Access for fishermen:
" I have spoken with Stan Hentschel, John Skinner, and several others in trying to resolve this. I realize you are all being restricted. I am not a fishing person, but my brother, sister, and father are. You have my committment on that that I am trying to resolve this in a peaceful manner."
Tom, RP, and any others who may be skeptical as to the actual progress made by Ms Bonner resolving this: I'm still skeptical, but am glad that she got up there and spoke. It was the first time I have seen her address fishermen publically. I remember the other meeting when there were over 75 fishermen in that same hall, and she did not show up.
I asked her about this, and she said she wasn't invited. I can't say whether this is true or not, but at least she faced us last night. That's what elected officials are supposed to do, no matter how unpleasant the task.
On a more serious note, Tom and others may have noticed that she seemed agitated or emotional. I think it's important to mention here that some genius on another website put up a google map to her house on the internet. http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...ons/icon13.gif Of course, when she saw this, it freaked her out, and maybe she has been a little nervous or guarded because of that. That's completely understandable.
It's cowardly to do something like that instead of going to a public meeting and meeting with someone face to face. Additionally, pulling crap like that makes all fishermen look bad.
If any of you reading this know if that post still exists, for the sake of all of us please contact the webmaster and ask them to remove it.
Sure we are angry about lost access. We will not forget or take the issue lightly. We have a right to protest and make our voices heard, either at public meetings or at the voting booths.
Sending implied threats over the internet, and causing a woman to feel unsafe in her house, is not cool. I'm still not convinced I believe everything she said, but I give her respect for standing up there in front of us.
For anyone who is so irritated about this that you feel you want to stand up and be counted, please join us at the next meeting, and let your opinion be heard in a respectful manner. Don't count on the other guy to do it, it's up to each and every one of us.
I drive 85 miles each way every time I go there. Why do I do this? I'll probably never fish up there, unless one of you guys invites me. :D I do it because we got the same stuff going on in NJ. We lose access in Monmouth county every year, and in NJ, it's mostly the fault of fishermen.
Here, in Brookhaven, it seems to me it's more the fault of people going to the beach at night and partying or camping, local teenagers, etc, and less the fault of most fishermen. But they're getting blamed anyway, and are in danger of losing access.
More importantly, let your opinion heard that there are other ways for the town to go after litterers. They could pass a $250 fine against litterers, where anyone tossing so much as a piece of gum would get a ticket. Of course, that means some of the local tenagers would be hassled by the police, and thier parents might get upset that their child got a $250 ticket. But it you want fairness and equality, you need equal enforcement. The added fines would help the budget shortfall for this year, so the town can't complain there is no money to institute this. Ticket and violations revenue is used by many towns to supplement the budget. http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...cons/icon3.gif
Even been to Connecticut? I was there with my girlfriend last year as we tried to scout a few fishing spots. Street after street had fences, no trespassing, and no fishing signs posted. If you guys on LI don't band together, that could be your reality very soon.
So if it happens in NY, it will happen soon after in NJ, the places I hold as sacred to my fishing enjoyment. I'm not about to let this happen, and am asking anyone out there who is upset about lost access to get involved.
Come and be a voice with us, show the elected public officials that we are more than a few, and we are not going to stand for this. :thumbsup:
Well said Darkskies, but will be to differ on Bonner. She is trying to cover her ***. The only reason she is even considering dealing with the fisherman is because of the tremendous amount of pressure she is feeling from the fisherman. The letters, the emails , the phone calls, the attendance at the meetings , etc , etc are all working. When she shut down the beach she never consulted with the fisherman, she never expected the outrage that followed.
From all accounts she is emotional and somewhat unprofessional. No one has ever threatened at all. The opposite is true, she has threatened to hit fisherman with a citation if they set foot on Shoreham Beach with a fishing rod. She is up for reelection in November , it is her first reelect and she is scared she is going to get voted out of office, that is the only reason she is even considering dealing with the fisherman.
Hey RP, I agree with ya, but felt I had to report what she said about being threatened when someone posted the Google map to her house. I have had internet stalkers who won't say anything when they meet you in person, so I know what that's like, pretty spineless.
I'm trying to report things as fair and balanced as I can, that's why I stated I originally had a poor opinion of her for the way all the issues were handled. I'm still skeptical, and feel this is taking way too long.. If I lived close to there I would try to get a big number of fishermen together, at least 100, and march us all to the beach with fishing poles, and ask the police to write us citations so we could fight it out in court. They will look at things differently if they had to try 100 pleas of "not guilty" to an ordinance that most people feel is discriminatory. Of course, this wouldn't work with only 20 guys, you would need numbers, just like in any protest situation.
The ultimate protest is voting someone out of office. If you guys in NY don't feel she is doing her job, I hope you will rally enough support in the November elections to vote people non-sympathetic to fishermen out. Again, you need coordinated support to do this. Too many fishermen are content to let the other guy do the work.
We voted some non fishermen friendly politicians out of offfice in NJ in some elections in 2007. I didn't live in that district, but it was good to see the change fishermen can effect when they join together. :thumbsup:
I'll keep doin my part, man, because I know it may affect me and the guys in NJ down the road. Thanks for all the updates, and it was cool to meet all the NY guys. (Now when is someone gonna invite me up to the North Shore to FISH!!!) :D
Some more pics:
Attachment 5450
Attachment 5451
Attachment 5452
Attachment 5453
:clapping:Great job RPsurf, Tom, Dark, and all the others. We have to keep this in the public eye.
I couldn't make that meeting. It seemed like it would not be worth it to go with all the political and townspeople talk, so I passed. However, you're right in a lot of things you guys said. I signed that petition posted by rpsurf, and hope the nycrf gets somewhere when they have that meeting. Nice work guys! :clapping::clapping::clapping:
Guys,
We need a big showing at the next meeting, every person there counts. So if you can make it, please do. bring 2 or 3 of your fishing buddies too. The politicians are feeling the pressure, the more of us there, the more pressure they feel.
Spread the word about this meeting.
Wednesday March 18th at 7:30 pm.
Directions to Shoreham Civic Meetings
Meetings are in the all-purpose room at the Miller Avenue elementary school in Shoreham.
From the west, via Rte. 347 and Rte. 25A
Follow 347 east to Port Jefferson and continue on Rte. 25A.
In Rocky Point, after the light at Rocky Point Road (Kohl's and Michael's in the shopping center on your right), stay to the right and follow the Rocky Point Bypass. The Bypass rejoins the business route at Woodville Road.
Pass the traffic lights at Randall Road and the Shoreham Plaza. Immediately after Shoreham Plaza (on your left), turn left (north) on Miller Avenue.
The school is on the right side of the road, just before it ends at North Country Road (See Map).
From east or west, via the LIE
Take the LIE east to Exit 68 (William Floyd Pkwy). Go north on the William Floyd (toward Brookhaven Lab and Wading River) and follow it to the end (Rte. 25A)
Turn left (west) at Rte. 25A. Turn right at the first traffic light (Miller Avenue).
The school is on the right side of the road, just before it ends at North Country Road. (See Map)
From the east, via Rte. 25A
Take Rte. 25A west, past the William Floyd Pkwy. Turn right at the first traffic light after the William Floyd (Miller Avenue).
The school is on the right side of the road, just before it ends at North Country Road. (See Map)
John
I would never fish there anyway, those people sound like a bunch of stuck up tightwads. Thanks for fighting those idiots. :thumbsup:
I hope nobody falls for crocodile teers. She has a habit of acting the way she did the other night at the meeting. There was a female attorney at the meeting the other night as well. I spoke with her afterwards and she was apalled by Bonner insinuating fisherman are criminals with violent intent. That was just Janes way of trying to divert the attention away from herself. If her own neighbor didn't happen to put her on the spot she would have never spoken the other night. She is feeling the pressure intensely now knowing that her own election is only right around the corner. She has not made many friends lately within her own community and that spreads beyond fisherman.
Looking forward to the meeting on the 18th. An increase in the number of us showing up would be very impressive. See you there.
Bob
LIBBA 1002, MSA 295
We need to fill that room with fisherman on Wednesday night ! Thanks in advance to anyone who is able to make it.
John
I just copied and pasted something that was in rpsurf's letter. I think it's important because we do this every day. We always say "the other guy will take care of it". I have an appointment that night, but I still have signed the petition, and will write or sign any letter you guys need signatures on. Keep up the pressure and don't give up. :clapping:
"Do not assume that someone else will go and take care of this issue. Every person and every voice counts. We all spend a tremendous amount of time every year thinking about fishing, planning fishing trips and being on the water. Take a couple of hours of your time to attend the meeting and stand up for your rights to insure we keep our access now and for future generations. Even if you do not fish this beach, we need your support. Your favorite surf spot or boat launch could be next.
Many of you have sent letters, signed the petition and attended meetings, it is very much appreciated. It is having an impact, but there still is a lot of work to do.
I hope to see as many people as possible at this meeting. "
Thanks,
John Russell
Look forward to seeing that place filled with fisherman.
I will be wearing a blue hooded Montauk Surfcaster Association sweatshirt if anyone wants to say hello.
Jon, you really did a great job of managing this on here and other boards. You have the gift of diplomacy which I don't. :embarassed: But your way is best, you can't force people to care about something.
I had a conversation today with a guy I look up to a lot, we asked each other how long is it going to take a majority of fishermen to get angry about the issues we face, and find the time to get involved? :don't know why:
But of course your diplomatic phrases are better. I like some of the stuff you said about "don't assume the other guy will take care of it. "
There are so many avenues being closed to sportsmen in this country becasue most people are "willing to let the other guy take care of it". Well, that's how access is lost.
You, Tom Farrell, and all the other guys are doing a great job on everything. Don't ever give up, we may need you to come to meetings ijn Monmouth county in the future as we lose access there. I hope to make it tomorrow if I can get headed out before the traffic starts. If so, hope to finally meet ya. :thumbsup: