Plovers/Closed Beaches

[fishinmission78]

I hate to see fishermen denouncing and joking about the extinction of a species. The numbers of these birds have come back in recent years but last year the numbers were down. This is mostly due to recreational beach users.

I don't want to see a species driven to extinction either.... Meanwhile, at least at SH, the birders were there every day this year, and walked down a lot of the trails as they took their pics of them. I didn't see anyone tresspass, don't want to fling any accusations. I only think we should be able to work together on this, even though fishermen and environmentalists seem to come from different worlds. Just my crazy opinion, as usual, about the ideal of all parties working together to resolve an issue.

Ask yourself who has more to gain if the beaches are closed for a long time, fishermen or the tree huggers. I feel it's either the tree huggers or the idiots in the SUVs who treat the beach like it's their own personal baja race. These are usually younger folks in the early 20's, most of whom don't even fish but come on the beach to party and race on the sand. Then when they get stuck they whine for someone to please help them out. I would say at least 10% of people who get the beach fishing permit at IBSP never fish and only go there to sunbathe away from the bathing beaches or go on picnics. I would blame a person like that first before I put the blame on fishermen.

[clamchucker]

. I would blame a person like that first before I put the blame on fishermen.

Now that Sandy Hook is designated as a mpa, the issue of blame may become moot. They can close the plover areas all season if they feel so inclined.

[surfwalker]

clamchucker, I'm afraid that this year they will do whatever they please with the non swimming beaches, will be more confined than ever I fear. Especially after what went on last year at NB with the nests. The frustrations are setting in already. See what develops.

[finchaser]

Now that Sandy Hook is designated as a mpa, the issue of blame may become moot. They can close the plover areas all season if they feel so inclined.

clamchucker, I'm afraid that this year they will do whatever they please with the non swimming beaches, will be more confined than ever I fear. Especially after what went on last year at NB with the nests. The frustrations are setting in already. See what develops.

I'd bet on both lets face it they closed 275 mies of beach in California and lets not forget the Carolina's.
A friend of mine works on the hook and doesn't fish and has heard rumblings of the closures. Another one of Nobama's missions hope all the people who wanted change are happy.

[Frankiesurf]

Sandy Hook has been an MPA for years. It hasn't just started. I don't fish there, so I don't know, but how many restrictions have been placed there in the past? Beside protecting endangered species and protecting the beach itself.

What kind of closures are they talking about Finchaser? And who is talking about rumblings? There just seems to be a lot of conjecture about closures whether it is MPA's or Piping Plovers. There is a plethora of information to be had by talking to the right people and doing the research.

[DarkSkies]

I recently filmed a closure area at Sandy Hook. It's my contention that the plover closure areas are not holding nesting birds anymore, nor have there been any plovers there for several weeks in large sections of the closed areas.

...So we should protect the plovers, and let them make their nests, and procreate. But what happens when the people who are in charge of the program seem to be over-zealous? I went to Sandy Hook National Park on Fri July 31, 2009 and filmed a plover closure area.
I observed the area for approx 35 minutes. At no time did I see any plovers, or their young,. or any other shorebirds, in the area I observed.
It's my belief that the plovers have been finished nesting for weeks. Yet the areas still remain closed, and we as fishermen are not allowed to enjoy and use them.
We all must respect nature and the delicate balance, but this is something that doesn't sit right with me. They are keeping an area closed much longer than they need to be. Feel free to use this video and my comments to support anything I said, or if you wish to raise awareness of, about the length and effectiveness of this program.
We all must work together to save this planet and the delicate ecosystems. However, when one group is allowed to put forth their regulations for longer than is scientifically necessary, maybe changes should be made. Thanks for watching!

Here's the video:

Dark, I walked some of the areas that you were talking about in that video. I couldn't find one plover at all, and I really looked for them. If someone ever wants to put a petition together to the National Park Service, I'm in! I think it's disgusting that they closed all those areas for that long. I searched for a pic of a plover so I would know what to look for, and posted it up. Again, I did not see even one!

You make some good points there Frankie. I don't want to see a species driven to extinction either. Anyone who reads a history of the American buffalo can understand how easily that can be accomplished. My biggest issue that caused me to shoot that video is that long after the plovers have left the nest, at SH they still keep the barriers up. I was wondering if someone who works with plovers every day could explain to me why this was so.

... I only think we should be able to work together on this, even though fishermen and environmentalists seem to come from different worlds. Just my crazy opinion, as usual, about the ideal of all parties working together to resolve an issue.

clamchucker, I'm afraid that this year they will do whatever they please with the non swimming beaches, will be more confined than ever I fear. Especially after what went on last year at NB with the nests. The frustrations are setting in already. See what develops.

Frankie, none of the fishermen I know wants to hurt these birds. Guy do feel frustration at not being able to fish when the plovers are nesting. They may express that through poor jokes, so be it. Most people agree we should give plovers their space. It would be sad for me if yet another species became extinct.

However, I hope I pointed out through the highlighted comments that I and others have seen them keep these areas closed for weeks after the last bird has gone.

I know Sandy Hook and other Gateway areas were designated as protected before all this MPA fuss came about. IMO the official MPA status now gives them the right to close it for the season if some environmental person decides it would be a good idea.

As I and others documented, there should be a closure, but it should be lifted once the last bird has gone. With the law so strong now it may be likely that some of those areas are closed for the whole season.

If they're officially permitted/mandated to do it, I believe they eventually will.

That's what concerns me, another unnecessary restriction on fishermen that contravenes the most reasonable solution. And because it's now officially designated as an MPA, there's nothing we can do about it.

[surfwalker]

Usually in March or April ropes are put into place from the dunes down to the waters edge. Signs are put in place for no entry beyond this point. Then another rope, maybe a ¼ mile to a half mile, is put in at the other end of the beach, same signs. They never used to bother us until May 15th till Aug 15th , then it was enforced.

If nests are found to be in this area, the area is shut down, no entry by anyone, no excuses. In the ‘80’s I don’t recall too many shut downs, almost extinct, but the ‘90’s had an increase in shutdowns. In the beginning it wasn’t really enforced that much as long as you were walking and casting, the rangers were good about it. But lately they have been really brutal if you are caught in these areas, even at 3-4am if a ranger is patrolling the beach, I know first hand.

Some regulars have gotten written warnings. I was told quite a few years ago, after my first written warning of the year, that if I received a second that my park privileges would be revoked for the remainder of the year. I never challenged that and still don’t know if it is true.

Now, I know I’m not supposed to be in certain areas, but I walk right through the summer months, and certain areas that have been productive through the years, consistently, are very hard to resist.

With the advent of more and more people getting into this addiction, the restrictions will be enforced even more.

I understand that the MPA’s have been around and the laws were on the books, but I fear that they will enforce them to the max and do whatever they please as far as beach closures.

As I stated in other posts, I would never hurt these birds or do any harm to their nesting areas, all I wanna do is walk the wetline.

[Frankiesurf]

I had done some research on this last year. The reason the ropes go up early is the fact that the male Plovers normally arrive from March through April with the females following a few weeks later. Since they are coming from the south, the farther north you are the later they will arrive, for the most part. The last of the juveniles leave by mid August .

The closures should last no longer than that. If they do then whoever is in charge of the area should be inundated with calls citing facts and not outrage.

Sandy Hook is part of the Gateway National Seashore MPA with areas including parts of NJ as well as NY. It has been since 1972.
The level of protection is ZML - Zoned Multiple Use MPAs that allow some extractive activities throughout the entire site, but that use marine zoning to allocate specific uses to compatible places or times in order to reduce user conflicts and adverse impacts.

The level of fishing restrictions is resrec - Recreational Fishing Restricted. Due to the ZML this may mean due to bathing beaches or shellfishing restrictions.

These restrictions are exactly the same for the Fire Island National Seashore.


The MPA fervor came about because the Executive Order 13158 in 2000. This was 10 years ago and everyone is up in arms all of a sudden. Everyone has a right to be concerned about the state of access we have. There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that shows they will stop fishing in the areas you already fish. If the government, state or federal, wants to restrict fishing or access all together there will have to be public input into the matter. This is how we, as recreational fishermen, defeated the commercial rollover quotas of striped bass. The East coast has based part of its economy on fishing, both rec and comm, since before the birth of this nation, it will not be given up so easily.

[buckethead]

There is no evidence, that I am aware of, that shows they will stop fishing in the areas you already fish. If the government, state or federal, wants to restrict fishing or access all together there will have to be public input into the matter. This is how we, as recreational fishermen, defeated the commercial rollover quotas of striped bass. The East coast has based part of its economy on fishing, both rec and comm, since before the birth of this nation, it will not be given up so easily.

I don't want to start an argument frankiesurf, but are you absolutely sure of that?

This came from a thread by finaddict called MPAs are coming. It details a public comment period BEFORE the MPAs off Hatteras were publicized. So the public had their chance to speak, now they're done. What further opportunities will the public have?

Also, in 2007 they expanded restrictions in the Channel Islands to include a permanent 111 mi no fishing area. That means no fishing at all, period, for recs, commercials, divers, boaters. The only ones who could possibly fish there according to that are the pelicans and birds who eat fish. Otherwise it's hands off by all hiumans.

Please enlighten me.

I hope this answers some questions about MPA's. It is not just a surf-fisherman threat, boaters, divers and others are at threat here as well. Expansion of the MPA's are iminent. Anything over 3 mi. off shore is considered Fed. waters as well.

Divers and fishermen worry about possible expansion of marine sanctuary
By SUSAN WEST
“As we’ve learned, there are no guarantees, and expanding the sanctuary could have unforeseen consequences detrimental to the villages,” Wilson warned.

Hatteras charter-boat captain and sanctuary advisory council member Jay Kavanagh added, “The concern is that any expansion could be a vehicle to introduce future fishing restrictions.”

The National Marine Fisheries Service regulates fishing in federal waters, but sanctuary management also affects fishing. In 2007, protected areas within the Channel Islands Sanctuary were expanded to permanently ban fishing in almost 111 square miles.

Alberg noted that while comments Thursday night in Hatteras ran against expansion of the sanctuary, comments at other public meetings have supported protection of resources outside of the current site. He said all comments would be reviewed.

The Office of National Marine Sanctuaries will take comments on management of the Monitor National Marine Sanctuary until February 1, 2009. Comments can be sent to shannon.ricles@noaa.gov or to Monitor NMS, 100 Museum Dr., Newport News, Va. 23606. More information is available at http://monitor.noaa.gov.

[Frankiesurf]

I don't want to start an argument frankiesurf, but are you absolutely sure of that?

This came from a thread by finaddict called MPAs are coming. It details a public comment period BEFORE the MPAs off Hatteras were publicized. So the public had their chance to speak, now they're done. What further opportunities will the public have?

Also, in 2007 they expanded restrictions in the Channel Islands to include a permanent 111 mi no fishing area. That means no fishing at all, period, for recs, commercials, divers, boaters. The only ones who could possibly fish there according to that are the pelicans and birds who eat fish. Otherwise it's hands off by all hiumans.

Please enlighten me.

The Cape Hatteras MPA is a ResAll which is All Fishing is Restricted not prohibited. This is the same as Fire Island National Seashore on Long Island. I had earlier misread the table on that. From what I understand is that there is fishing allowed. Since i and many I know have fished F.I.N.S I can attest that fishing is not illegal there. There may be some restricted areas for certain types of fishing but it is not prohibited. I will try to find out exactly what that means when I have the chance.

The Channel Islands is a whole different animal. I am having a hard time finding out exactly what the reason the closures are for. It is not the entire Channel Islands just certain areas. That leads me to believe it may be a reef of some sort but I am not sure. The reason it is closed to all fishing is due to the public comments as I stated earlier. They received over 30,000 public comments with the majority in support of the Marine Reserves ( channelislands.noaa.gov

[Frankiesurf]

The public comment period is always publicized before it happens. Whether or not most of the public are aware of it is a different story. As long as it is put out there, it doesn't have to be advertised on prime time TV during the Simpsons. It just has to be out there somewhere.

Does anyone read the legal notices in the newspaper? There are occasionally some very interesting agendas in there.

[finchaser]

Sandy Hook has been an MPA for years. It hasn't just started. I don't fish there, so I don't know, but how many restrictions have been placed there in the past? Beside protecting endangered species and protecting the beach itself.

What kind of closures are they talking about Finchaser? And who is talking about rumblings? There just seems to be a lot of conjecture about closures whether it is MPA's or Piping Plovers. There is a plethora of information to be had by talking to the right people and doing the research.

He works on the hook everyday and has heard of beach closers to fisherman from people who have worked there for years and know things before they are usually made public. A double wammy MPA and Homeland security rumblings.

[DarkSkies]

Usually in March or April ropes are put into place from the dunes down to the waters edge. Signs are put in place for no entry beyond this point. Then another rope, maybe a ¼ mile to a half mile, is put in at the other end of the beach, same signs. They never used to bother us until May 15th till Aug 15th , then it was enforced.

If nests are found to be in this area, the area is shut down, no entry by anyone, no excuses. In the ‘80’s I don’t recall too many shut downs, almost extinct, but the ‘90’s had an increase in shutdowns. In the beginning it wasn’t really enforced that much as long as you were walking and casting, the rangers were good about it. But lately they have been really brutal if you are caught in these areas, even at 3-4am if a ranger is patrolling the beach, I know first hand.

Some regulars have gotten written warnings. I was told quite a few years ago, after my first written warning of the year, that if I received a second that my park privileges would be revoked for the remainder of the year. I never challenged that and still don’t know if it is true.

Now, I know I’m not supposed to be in certain areas, but I walk right through the summer months, and certain areas that have been productive through the years, consistently, are very hard to resist.

With the advent of more and more people getting into this addiction, the restrictions will be enforced even more.

I understand that the MPA’s have been around and the laws were on the books, but I fear that they will enforce them to the max and do whatever they please as far as beach closures.

As I stated in other posts, I would never hurt these birds or do any harm to their nesting areas, all I wanna do is walk the wetline.

I thought it was interesting that 3 years ago surfwalker was griping about this....with his decades of experience fishing Sandy Hook, he and some others here have a unique perspective.....

Just to be clear......It has been discussed in this thread, that the closed area is not a MPA.
Now that Labor Day has passed, things will once again go back to normal and we will have access.

My point here....
1. is that without our diligence as fishermen, it would not be too hard for some environmental groups to lobby for part of Sandy Hook to be a MPA, either ocean or bayside....
In the past, some would argue my point here as impossible....

2. However, the most recent RFA newsletter shows how MPAs are becoming part of the East Coast.
I will do everything in my power to fight MPAs in our state....






**Was wondering if any of you had further thoughts on this....
Or beaches in your area that are closed yearly because of the plovers.....

[wish4fish]

dude the only things the plovers r good for is roasting over a fire they taste like chicken lol

[storminsteve]

With the end of summer these signs will soon be a faded memory!

[cowherder]

That was the worst part about fishing the hook this summer. I never saw a plover up there after June.

[cowherder]

Well guys the signs are up again! No access till august.

[williehookem]

Same thing for FI where they close a part of Demo when they arrive. I haven't seen population figures but hear they are not that prolific when breeding. Usually one or two chicks per pair. so that's probably why. Not too many make it to adulthood.

[Blazin420]

Well guys the signs are up again! No access till august.

I heard that didnt comfirm it for my own eyes..either way it was coming