Defining bait in the water

[plugcrazy]

How do you tell what type of bait is running in the water. i.e. is it bunker, herring, etc.?

Is it true that you can tell by the different type's of birds which follow the bait?

[Frankiesurf]

I sometimes have a problem with this. Other guys see bait and I see nothing. It is not always that easy but I think that as long as you have profile down you should be alright.

I know gulls will eat anything but terns are on small bait like sandeels or spearing.

[surfstix1963]

Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys)Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore if your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins,diamond jig and see if you hook up Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

[stripercrazy]

Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys)Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore if your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins,diamond jig and see if you hook up Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

Good post, I'll add that the mullet move with the full moon, so start looking for the v-wakes around then as they leave the bays at the end of the summer.

[wish4fish]

Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys)Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore if your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins,diamond jig and see if you hook up Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

rite on dude mullet the vwake is it! in the spring now mostly u will see bunker u wont kno unless there is lots of them but you can smell them

[ledhead36]

Or close your eyes. If they are in the channel you won't see or hear them usually because down deeper. When in close you can hear them at night if it's not too windy.

[DarkSkies]

Good post, I'll add that the mullet move with the full moon, so start looking for the v-wakes around then as they leave the bays at the end of the summer.

T
I felt it might be interesting to talk about forage fish and the relation to inshore fish movements, and what people had observed in inshore predator populations through the years (striped bass, bluefish, weakfish, etc) Maybe people have different observations and opinions, and I thought it might give us something to talk about.

I've gotten feedback from enough contacts by now.... that I can try to put some of these thoughts together here.....
1. The Sept full moon is less than 2 weeks away. I know there is a big push of mullet usually during the Oct Harvest moon, but I feel this year will be different. Look for a big push of mullet along many of our East Coast surf and inlet areas during the Sept full moon.

2. This is already happening in the Island Beach area. Cuts and outsucks that have been slow during August, are now holding bluefish and other predators. While the predators are mostly small at this moment, that can change in an instant once the larger groups of predators start finding these fish (primarily mullet for now) which will be streaming down the coastline.

3. Those who know what they are doing and understand the night tides, are already catching larger fish in various inlet areas at night.

1. Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys) Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.

2. Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,

3. bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..

4. Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore.

5. If your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins, diamond jig and see if you hook up.

6. Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

Listen to what surfstix is telling ya's here, people...he knows stuff.....



Just remember, for those fishing artificials at night..... What is the predominant forage in your area?
Those obsessed with throwing "big wood" are not doing the best thinking they can do, (unless fishing Montauk or Block at night...AND bunker are in your area regularly.)
The predominant forage I am seeing where I have been fishing is small and skinny right now.
If you are seeing the same things when you are fishing/scouting, think how best you will present to the fish that are feeding on them.
Teasers should be part of what you're carrying with you at night, unless you are fishing very rocky areas, or areas of high weed content, where they could be a problem.



** Last night, the fishing was terrible for me.
This was primarily because the conditions made it tough for presentation and dirtied up the bay waters. Constant W wind at a steady 20mph. This only minimized when I was leaving. Made fishing tough and scattered the bait, and the predators as well.

However, the different types of bait I ran into, were encouraging.....(in a few isolated areas)
Spearing, glass minnows, snapper blues, an abundance of needlefish feeding on the spearing, and for the first time, some small reddish type shrimp, different than the average normal grass shrimp one would see in the back bays.
Also, some sort of worm hatch, probably cinder worms, brought on by the new moon.
To me, this is all part of my fishing trips, and can sometimes turn a depressing night into a fascinating one.

[DarkSkies]

This thread was started on another site by a guy known as Bluewater Sportfishing.
I thought some of the responses in the offshore forum there were thoughtful and reflected some serious OTW experience.

However, they were mostly addressing forage fish as they relate to movement of offshore fish.

I felt it might be interesting to talk about forage fish and the relation to inshore fish movements, and what people had observed in inshore predator populations through the years (striped bass, bluefish, weakfish, etc) Maybe people have different observations and opinions, and I thought it might give us something to talk about until the Spring.

So, with credit to Bluewater Sportfishing for the idea I'm starting this thread here, and looking for some opinions.

[DarkSkies]

These were posts by Bluewater that started the thread -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewater sportfishing
Up and down the coast I see a huge lack of forage fish from Bunker, Herring, and Mackerel. We had the Bunker shortage in cape may this fall, and now as I finish up a dismal season in Morehead City one thing I can say for sure was a lack of bait in the area. Yes the temps and water were cold but there was very very little bunker in the area. This is what I see not made up theries. What are the rest of you seeing from Maine to N.C.? and what do you think is the cause of this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewater sportfishing
Thats interesting, I dont think there is a single species of fish that is "underutilized". I can say right now if we dont come up with something soon to protect the near shore bait supply were not gonna be catching anything. Take a look at the "food court" ( massys hambone hotdog etc etc) we have had insane fishing there for over a decade with Bluefin, Yellowfin and other pelegics, now its pretty much the fish move thru in a matter of days. Simple reason is lack of bait, why? maybe the bottom was soured by the draggers and the sand eels have no forage so they moved north, its no coincidence that in the lsat two years north jersey and long Island enjoyed spectacular Bluefin fishing when years past the fish were there but not in the numbers like they are seeing today.

Same can hold true for the near shore Herring in the gulf of maine. It took 8 years for the mid water trawl boats to wipe them out....8 years!!!
on the grand scheme of things thats horrendous. A fish that was once so plentifull is now gone from the waters. End result is the fish that ate the herring have moved offshore..way offshore. The science was wrong, the boats were told they could take this much and sustain the fishery, they were warned by Canada that taking that much will destroy the herring stocks, they (noaa) didnt listen and look at what we have now, a train wreck. Who is accountable for that?

One thing I would like to know is have they done any research on, not so much how many fish can be taken but how fast the fish are removed from the ocean, in other words if you take 20,000 metric tons of forage fish out of the ocean to quickly compared to taking it over a time line what would be better for the fishery. End result would be the same but maybe it would give the fish time to move on and a new school would replace the one they were working on? Tkae a little from each school instead of taking the whole school. I dunno just thinking out loud.

[DarkSkies]

This was my response...


[Quote:]
Originally Posted by Bluewater sportfishing
I can say right now if we dont come up with something soon to protect the near shore bait supply were not gonna be catching anything.

Same can hold true for the near shore Herring in the gulf of maine. It took 8 years for the mid water trawl boats to wipe them out....8 years!!!
on the grand scheme of things thats horrendous. A fish that was once so plentifull is now gone from the waters. End result is the fish that ate the herring have moved offshore..way offshore.
The science was wrong, the boats were told they could take this much and sustain the fishery, they were warned by Canada that taking that much will destroy the herring stocks, they (noaa) didnt listen and look at what we have now, a train wreck. Who is accountable for that? [/QUOTE]




You made some very valid points here Bluewater. Thanks for trying to stir up interest.

I would like to add a few observations, not to provoke any arguments, these are merely my opinions and what I have seen:

1. Bunker -I went to Mass for some of the hearings about striped bass. A universal complaint from the comm and rec guys up there is that there aren't bunker around in the numbers they remember seeing just 10 short years ago. That is one of the reasons they say their bass catches have declined. Or even if they feel they have not declined, they say the bass are harder to find in concentrations like they used to.

2. Herring - You're on the money about your herring observations, all part of the food chain. Unfortunately a lot of us don't get involved until it's too late.

Who cares about a bunch of herring in the inshore and midshore waters? Apparently not a lot of us. My theory on that, without starting an argument, is that a lot of us only get involved when we see the damage or less fish in our home waters, and then begin to question why. By that time the damage is already done to a large extent. But that's the way it's always been, a small % of guys worrying about the big picture, and most everyone else who says "Aw it doesn't affect me directly, I can't be bothered writing that letter, or registering my protest, let someone else do it"

I'm not ranting about that. I have come to accept it as part of human nature. So it's a great thing that posts like yours raise awareness. The next logical step is to figure out what do do once awareness is raised, and find a fisherman PAC that will get involved to represent your interests.

3. Jet Ski Brian's pics and the decline of the bunker biomass -I don't want to call the netters "rapers of the sea" because that is too loaded a word. Omega protein will always be here, and even if you curtailed their operations, they would still contract with "local fishermen" to buy their bunker from them.

I don't feel the bunker biomass is in a freefall, based on conversations I've had with seasoned fishermen all up and down the coast.
But I did state above that there are not as many bunker and herring in N England now, that's fact.
And...there is now research to show that the bunker biomass has declined slightly. Omega Protein can no longer claim that the stocks are completely healthy.

This, coupled with some problems in Chesapeake bunker spawning areas, (runoff, fertilizers, phoshpates, etc) has contributed to a measurable decline in the bunker biomass.

4. Tuna - are in a serious decline throughout all the regions of the world. I would agree that forage for them is a big part of this. However, unseen poachers offshore of the US and other countries are taking their toll on the numbers. Record prices of $500,000 and up for a bluefin in Japan are not helping things. I don't have the answers for this.

They put so many restrictons on US fishing for tuna, yet outside out waters there is a free-for-all going on, every day of the year the illegal netters can get their nets out. This is truly hurting us long-term, as more becomes known about the capacity of tuna to swim all over.


5. Sustainable fishing and harvests - You mentioned another problem area with comm fishermen - it seems they come through an area and wipe all the fish., there is no selective harvest.
First of all, I would respectfully say that it's hard to be selective when you're trawling big nets. The recent comm bass harvest off NC
(video on youtube)





shows that comms have shown they are not concerned with the resource.

A comm's job is to get in there, get as many fish as they can in a short time, and head for home. Unfortunately this brings situations where they end up with overages in the pulls they do.









Solutions?
I don't have any concrete answers for you, Bluewater. It seems to me we have to look at the picture where everything is inter-related, as you said.

Raising awareness is about the best hope we can achieve now. As more fishermen see the inter-connectedness, and focus away from "Well I'm fishing today and that's all I care about", perhaps some of them will start to put pressure on legislators, get involved, and behin educating others, like you have done.

I don't know about you guys, but my interest in promoting awareness is selfish. I WANT to continue fishing every day of my life that I am able to, I NEED to fish.

I don't want to see any closures or Moratoriums like they had in the 1980's. To me, it's not just about striped bass, tuna, sea bass, or flounder. The forage fish that these predators feed on is key to their long-term survival. As one who mostly fishes the surf, when we have no bait in the wash, there are usually no fish.

When you have less forage fish inshore and offshore, the fish move quickly through an area and on to areas where there is more forage. We all saw that with the tuna in 2010. There is a delicate balance there.

Thank you for trying to raise awareness, Bluewater.

[DarkSkies]

I don't see any concrete solutions near-term, but raising awareness can always help.

So, people, what are your thoughts, comments as this applies to striped bass, and inshore and surf fishing for other species? What have your experiences been, what have you seen?

Have you noticed any trends in the last 10 years as related to the type of fishing you do and the types of, or lack of, any species of forage fish?

[BassBuddah]

I'll give you a LI example. From the boat and the surf in our 2010 fall run, we had quite alot of baitfish at Montauk for a few weeks, mostly whitebait.
Toward the end of Oct and into Nov/Dec, there was a huge body of sandeels set up between shinnecock and moriches. The bulk of the bigger bass came from that area. They were keying in on the sandeels. Other areas like the rockaways and breezy had not much going on. Only 25 or so nautical miles distance, and it was like night and day. As the run progressed, you knew not to go anywhere other than where that hot action is, why bother. So the bait/forage concentration is key in any fishing excursion.

[Doublerunner]

The forage fish are also important to keeping the water clear. Menhaden are filter feeders that eat up a lot of bacteria. When ocean floors get wiped out from trawlers they have no vegetation left to eat so they move to deeper waters. No inshore vegetation and no inshore baitfish are contributing to the inshore dead zones that continue to grow along our coastlines. Fix the baitfish issues and you'll see an improvement inshore all along our coastlines both in better fish and a healthier ecosystem