Defining bait in the water

[stormchaser]

bait fish and Bass
Let's see some pics of bait in the water. What is your favorite bait when its around?

[crosseyedbass]

myself I like when the bunker are around. sandeels too have had some good luck when they come inshore.

[crosseyedbass]

BLUEBACK Herring (Alosa aestivalis)


As stated above, the Blueback Herring are very similar in appearance to Alewife and most people are unable to distinguish differences between the two. Their range pretty much overlaps the Alewife and the habits of both are similar. Landlocked Blue Backs grow larger with specimens of 8-10” common. Catching Blue Backs for bait works much the same as with Alewives. Both of these baitfish are photosensitive usually staying deep during daylight. They can be netted at sunrise in the back of coves with flowing creeks. Alternatively, they can be caught with Sabiki rigs or plain gold hooks in deep water.

Blueback Herring and Fishing

Blueback herring are a favorite food of bass where they live in the same waters. They are a saltwater fish that can live in freshwater and have become established in many freshwater lakes.

• Blueback Herring Description - Blueback herring and alewife are very similar. They are flat sided fish with rounded bellies and forked tails. Both are silvery with dark blue or bronze backs and have small spiny scales along their belly. The TWRA have made a great comparison chart to try and tell them apart.
• Blueback Herring Size - Their average size is 4-6 inches, but they do reach a length of approximately 16 inches (40 cm) and weight of 7 ounces (200 g.) Maximum age is about eight years.
• Blueback Herring Distribution - From Nova Scotia to northern Florida and inland rivers and lakes.
• What Blueback Herring Eat - Microscopic plants and animals (plankton), small insects, small fish and eggs of fish (including largemouth)
• Blueback Herring Spawn - In fresh or brackish water by depositing eggs that stick to hard objects like gravel, rocks, plants and wood, and as many already know, your boat transom and outboard motor.
• In lakes they like hard botoms composed of clay or gravel where wind and wave action keep silt clear. They will spawn on riprap, seawalls and pilings, too.
• Blueback Herring Attraction to Light - Blueback herring seem to come to the surface when the sun is shining and go deep on darker days. For that reason the topwater bite is better on sunny days and largemouth and spotted bass tend to feed better when the sun is shining.
• Blueback Herring Life Cycle - In saltwater adult blueback herring swim to fresh or brackish water to spawn. They spawn in water above 70 degrees, so lake herring spawn when the water reaches about 70 degrees. Many adults die after the spawn but a few survive to return to the sea. The larval herring live for a few months in spawning areas then move back to the sea. In freshwater herring are more likely to survive the spawn. Female herring are fully mature at five years old and produce 60,000 tp 100,000 eggs. Males are smaller and mature at three to five years of age.
• Blueback Herring Problems In Freshwater Lakes - Since blueback herring eat fish eggs and fry as well as the food that game fish fry eat, they are director predators and competitors with them. Because of this they ahve caused problems with largemouth populations in Lake Burton and Nottely in Georgia and walleye populations in Lake Hiwassee in North Carolina. All state Departments of Natural Resources work to limit their spread in freshwater lakes and it is illegal to use them as live bait in lakes where they don't already exist and it is always illegal to stock them.

Blueback herring are a mixed blessing in lakes and the long term effects might be very bad. Follow your state's rules about stocking any species in any lake. The biologists know more about this than we fishermen do. Rember that they are illegal in Tennessee and in Alabama, just to name a few areas.




SILVERSIDE (GHOST) Minnow


Silverside or Ghost Minnows are prime striper bait on Lakes West of the Mississippi. They are usually threaded several to a hook and fished on sand bottoms.Obtaining Ghost Minnows requires seining in most instances. Sandy beaches and boat ramps are favored seining spots. The bait ranges up to 6” in length and is usually not fished live. They make up an important part of a stripers diet as well as being white bass candy.




Bluegills are a member of the sunfish family. They are easy to cast net, or they can be caught
Fly rods, spinning gear, or cane poles. Early spring or Late fall are usually the best times to use them for bait


Gizzard shad have probably accounted for more striped bass than any other live bait in freshwater. They are usually easy to obtain on most lakes and are widespread across the United States. They are commonly found in the backs of muddy coves in water less than 6’ deep. Cast net the bait using a 7’ –3/8 mesh net. Look for dimpling of the lake surface to locate this schooling bait. Ideal size for bait are shad from 6 to 12” with gizzard shad capable of reaching weights of 4lbs. Striped Bass were stocked in inland lakes as a control for these prolific members of the Herring family.


Threadfin shad are usually found in the same ranges as the gizzard shad. They are not quite as hardy as the Gizzard. Like Gizzards, they are an important part of the forage base. Employ the same methods for locating and catching them as you would gizzards. Usual bait sizes are from 4 to 10”. Also called a yellowtail.

All Herring are PREDATORY; this includes gizzard and threadfin shad. Stocking any member of the Herring family should be carefully considered. They can adversely affect some fish populations! There are stiff fines in many states for importing or transporting some baitfish, make sure you check the state regulations !




Mooneyes are another predatory herring found in most drainage to the Mississippi. They are found from Sluggish streams to fast moving water. They can be caught on small spinners, flies, spoons, or earthworms fished on a small hook. Usually olive green on back with silversides. Striper fishermen have been known to go to GREAT lengths to obtain this seldom seen bait. Large specimens can weigh up to 3lbs. Ideal bait sizes are from 8 to 16”. They can be cast netted but it requires a 10-foot ½ “ mesh FAST sinking net. This is perhaps one of the speediest live baits to be found.




Spot tail minnows are also excellent Striper bait. You can usually find them under overhanging willows along rivers or lakes feeding on small flies. A ¼” mesh cast net will keep from gilling this small bait. Alternatively, they can be seined. Usual bait sizes range from 3” up to 5”.




Skipjack Herring aka Poor Man’s Tarpon, or River Herring, will readily take small artificial. Common in rivers from Texas to South Carolina. Seldom cast netted. Ranges up to 4lb. Ideal bait size is from 6 to 16”. They can be a ball to catch on fly rods or ultralite spinning tackle. Once hooked they will repeatedly jump from the water. Extremely hard to keep alive in a bait tank. A modified tuna tube will keep them lively. Many Striper over 40lbs are caught on this bait each year.


The Golden Shiner is favored wintertime bait. Shiners are found around moss beds and reed stands on many lakes and rivers in the US. They are easily cast netted after throwing breadcrumbs out on the water, or they can be caught on a rod and reel using a hair fine hook and about a 1/8” in diameter rolled piece of bread. Ideal bait size is from 5 to 12”.
A twelve-inch specimen will weigh about 3/4lb. extremely easy to keep for long periods and very tough bait.

White Perch or Waccamaws, are a Stripers relative but at times Striper can’t resist eating them. Similar to a White Bass in appearance but without pronounced lateral lines. Bait stealers UN paralleled in their range, which is from Maine to Kansas. Easily caught in cast nets, or with very small artificial or live baits fished on bottom. Ideal size for bait is from 4 to 8”. Extremely sharp gill plates so handle with care!!!

River Red horse sucker. Found in clear fast moving streams, several close relatives scattered across central US. Occasionally caught while cast netting, can also be caught fishing small earthworms on the bottom. Very hardy bait

[DarkSkies]

Some pics of bait that was in the back bays last Fall..
The first is a needlefish...in this one area there were large needlefish up to 12" on the prowl after smaller baitfish...is it any wonder that folks do so well on needles in the fall?
Here's some proof as to why.....



The 2nd pic is a poor pic of the thousands of small rainfish and spearing that were around....there was one cove area where I came upon thousands and thousands of them one night.
These were tiny juveniles....ranging from 1/2 to 2" long....

My flashlight on the water attracted and concentrated them....As I did that some bluefish and bass moved in from deeper water and started hammering them...oblivious to the fact that I was there...but cautiously out of reach on the edges of the shadow line cast by my light on the water....

It was fascinating for me to watch...so I just thought I would share it with you folks......


The 3rd pic I think.....is some spearing that JB sent me...either noticed by him or Blazin........

Some friends mentioned the surf was loaded with spearing a few weeks ago...
Within 2 nights after that the back bays were loaded with these....according to my logs they were about a month late this year...but definitely a part of the food chain in those areas......

[porgy75]

Cool pics. Question, this time of year, once the noreaster waves stop and it gets calmer again. there were some dark circles in the water in the ocean about 2 weeks ago. Would those dark circles likely be bunker or herrring? thanks

[stripercrazy]

I can't answer for all situations but I think it depends on the state. In jersey you are probably talking about bunker. In massachusetts you are probably talking about mackerel herring or sandeels.

[Rip-Plugger]

Some pics of bait that was in the back bays last Fall..
The first is a needlefish...in this one area there were large needlefish up to 12" on the prowl after smaller baitfish...is it any wonder that folks do so well on needles in the fall?
Here's some proof as to why.....



The 2nd pic is a poor pic of the thousands of small rainfish and spearing that were around....there was one cove area where I came upon thousands and thousands of them one night.
These were tiny juveniles....ranging from 1/2 to 2" long....

My flashlight on the water attracted and concentrated them....As I did that some bluefish and bass moved in from deeper water and started hammering them...oblivious to the fact that I was there...but cautiously out of reach on the edges of the shadow line cast by my light on the water....

It was fascinating for me to watch...so I just thought I would share it with you folks......


The 3rd pic I think.....is some spearing that JB sent me...either noticed by him or Blazin........

Some friends mentioned the surf was loaded with spearing a few weeks ago...
Within 2 nights after that the back bays were loaded with these....according to my logs they were about a month late this year...but definitely a part of the food chain in those areas......

those shiners as we call them are wonderful deep fried,I used to get them from my friend after he drag netted them to sell in his bait shop.
I would buy only the ones that size and would take all he had.
grab the head,half twist and pull,everything comes out and then some seafood coating shake off and into the basket they go.
eat them like thick French fries,,,wonderful with red hot.

[bababooey]

fried spearing with hot sauce sounds delish!
I wish we could do the same with squid in Jersey, but they don't seem to be around that you could catch them every night like they are up north. Calamari Red Hots would be awesome.

[plugcrazy]

How do you tell what type of bait is running in the water. i.e. is it bunker, herring, etc.?

Is it true that you can tell by the different type's of birds which follow the bait?

[Frankiesurf]

I sometimes have a problem with this. Other guys see bait and I see nothing. It is not always that easy but I think that as long as you have profile down you should be alright.

I know gulls will eat anything but terns are on small bait like sandeels or spearing.

[surfstix1963]

Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys)Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore if your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins,diamond jig and see if you hook up Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

[stripercrazy]

Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys)Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore if your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins,diamond jig and see if you hook up Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

Good post, I'll add that the mullet move with the full moon, so start looking for the v-wakes around then as they leave the bays at the end of the summer.

[wish4fish]

Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys)Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore if your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins,diamond jig and see if you hook up Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

rite on dude mullet the vwake is it! in the spring now mostly u will see bunker u wont kno unless there is lots of them but you can smell them

[ledhead36]

Or close your eyes. If they are in the channel you won't see or hear them usually because down deeper. When in close you can hear them at night if it's not too windy.

[DarkSkies]

Good post, I'll add that the mullet move with the full moon, so start looking for the v-wakes around then as they leave the bays at the end of the summer.

T
I felt it might be interesting to talk about forage fish and the relation to inshore fish movements, and what people had observed in inshore predator populations through the years (striped bass, bluefish, weakfish, etc) Maybe people have different observations and opinions, and I thought it might give us something to talk about.

I've gotten feedback from enough contacts by now.... that I can try to put some of these thoughts together here.....
1. The Sept full moon is less than 2 weeks away. I know there is a big push of mullet usually during the Oct Harvest moon, but I feel this year will be different. Look for a big push of mullet along many of our East Coast surf and inlet areas during the Sept full moon.

2. This is already happening in the Island Beach area. Cuts and outsucks that have been slow during August, are now holding bluefish and other predators. While the predators are mostly small at this moment, that can change in an instant once the larger groups of predators start finding these fish (primarily mullet for now) which will be streaming down the coastline.

3. Those who know what they are doing and understand the night tides, are already catching larger fish in various inlet areas at night.

1. Generally big bait big birds (Gannets,seagulls,ospreys) Ospreys are great when you cannot see a school of bait watch where they are diving.

2. Mullet make a v-wake when swimming,

3. bunker tend to stay on top and school up and swim in large circles until the tide pushes them in or out at low tide they may be close to the shore reel the plug all the way into the beach or river..

4. Sandeels and spearing are usually pretty visible close to the shore.

5. If your using larger plugs and nothins happening try switching to a thin profile hopkins, diamond jig and see if you hook up.

6. Charteuse green teaser is a good color.

Listen to what surfstix is telling ya's here, people...he knows stuff.....



Just remember, for those fishing artificials at night..... What is the predominant forage in your area?
Those obsessed with throwing "big wood" are not doing the best thinking they can do, (unless fishing Montauk or Block at night...AND bunker are in your area regularly.)
The predominant forage I am seeing where I have been fishing is small and skinny right now.
If you are seeing the same things when you are fishing/scouting, think how best you will present to the fish that are feeding on them.
Teasers should be part of what you're carrying with you at night, unless you are fishing very rocky areas, or areas of high weed content, where they could be a problem.



** Last night, the fishing was terrible for me.
This was primarily because the conditions made it tough for presentation and dirtied up the bay waters. Constant W wind at a steady 20mph. This only minimized when I was leaving. Made fishing tough and scattered the bait, and the predators as well.

However, the different types of bait I ran into, were encouraging.....(in a few isolated areas)
Spearing, glass minnows, snapper blues, an abundance of needlefish feeding on the spearing, and for the first time, some small reddish type shrimp, different than the average normal grass shrimp one would see in the back bays.
Also, some sort of worm hatch, probably cinder worms, brought on by the new moon.
To me, this is all part of my fishing trips, and can sometimes turn a depressing night into a fascinating one.

[DarkSkies]

This thread was started on another site by a guy known as Bluewater Sportfishing.
I thought some of the responses in the offshore forum there were thoughtful and reflected some serious OTW experience.

However, they were mostly addressing forage fish as they relate to movement of offshore fish.

I felt it might be interesting to talk about forage fish and the relation to inshore fish movements, and what people had observed in inshore predator populations through the years (striped bass, bluefish, weakfish, etc) Maybe people have different observations and opinions, and I thought it might give us something to talk about until the Spring.

So, with credit to Bluewater Sportfishing for the idea I'm starting this thread here, and looking for some opinions.

[DarkSkies]

These were posts by Bluewater that started the thread -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewater sportfishing
Up and down the coast I see a huge lack of forage fish from Bunker, Herring, and Mackerel. We had the Bunker shortage in cape may this fall, and now as I finish up a dismal season in Morehead City one thing I can say for sure was a lack of bait in the area. Yes the temps and water were cold but there was very very little bunker in the area. This is what I see not made up theries. What are the rest of you seeing from Maine to N.C.? and what do you think is the cause of this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewater sportfishing
Thats interesting, I dont think there is a single species of fish that is "underutilized". I can say right now if we dont come up with something soon to protect the near shore bait supply were not gonna be catching anything. Take a look at the "food court" ( massys hambone hotdog etc etc) we have had insane fishing there for over a decade with Bluefin, Yellowfin and other pelegics, now its pretty much the fish move thru in a matter of days. Simple reason is lack of bait, why? maybe the bottom was soured by the draggers and the sand eels have no forage so they moved north, its no coincidence that in the lsat two years north jersey and long Island enjoyed spectacular Bluefin fishing when years past the fish were there but not in the numbers like they are seeing today.

Same can hold true for the near shore Herring in the gulf of maine. It took 8 years for the mid water trawl boats to wipe them out....8 years!!!
on the grand scheme of things thats horrendous. A fish that was once so plentifull is now gone from the waters. End result is the fish that ate the herring have moved offshore..way offshore. The science was wrong, the boats were told they could take this much and sustain the fishery, they were warned by Canada that taking that much will destroy the herring stocks, they (noaa) didnt listen and look at what we have now, a train wreck. Who is accountable for that?

One thing I would like to know is have they done any research on, not so much how many fish can be taken but how fast the fish are removed from the ocean, in other words if you take 20,000 metric tons of forage fish out of the ocean to quickly compared to taking it over a time line what would be better for the fishery. End result would be the same but maybe it would give the fish time to move on and a new school would replace the one they were working on? Tkae a little from each school instead of taking the whole school. I dunno just thinking out loud.

[DarkSkies]

This was my response...


[Quote:]
Originally Posted by Bluewater sportfishing
I can say right now if we dont come up with something soon to protect the near shore bait supply were not gonna be catching anything.

Same can hold true for the near shore Herring in the gulf of maine. It took 8 years for the mid water trawl boats to wipe them out....8 years!!!
on the grand scheme of things thats horrendous. A fish that was once so plentifull is now gone from the waters. End result is the fish that ate the herring have moved offshore..way offshore.
The science was wrong, the boats were told they could take this much and sustain the fishery, they were warned by Canada that taking that much will destroy the herring stocks, they (noaa) didnt listen and look at what we have now, a train wreck. Who is accountable for that? [/QUOTE]




You made some very valid points here Bluewater. Thanks for trying to stir up interest.

I would like to add a few observations, not to provoke any arguments, these are merely my opinions and what I have seen:

1. Bunker -I went to Mass for some of the hearings about striped bass. A universal complaint from the comm and rec guys up there is that there aren't bunker around in the numbers they remember seeing just 10 short years ago. That is one of the reasons they say their bass catches have declined. Or even if they feel they have not declined, they say the bass are harder to find in concentrations like they used to.

2. Herring - You're on the money about your herring observations, all part of the food chain. Unfortunately a lot of us don't get involved until it's too late.

Who cares about a bunch of herring in the inshore and midshore waters? Apparently not a lot of us. My theory on that, without starting an argument, is that a lot of us only get involved when we see the damage or less fish in our home waters, and then begin to question why. By that time the damage is already done to a large extent. But that's the way it's always been, a small % of guys worrying about the big picture, and most everyone else who says "Aw it doesn't affect me directly, I can't be bothered writing that letter, or registering my protest, let someone else do it"

I'm not ranting about that. I have come to accept it as part of human nature. So it's a great thing that posts like yours raise awareness. The next logical step is to figure out what do do once awareness is raised, and find a fisherman PAC that will get involved to represent your interests.

3. Jet Ski Brian's pics and the decline of the bunker biomass -I don't want to call the netters "rapers of the sea" because that is too loaded a word. Omega protein will always be here, and even if you curtailed their operations, they would still contract with "local fishermen" to buy their bunker from them.

I don't feel the bunker biomass is in a freefall, based on conversations I've had with seasoned fishermen all up and down the coast.
But I did state above that there are not as many bunker and herring in N England now, that's fact.
And...there is now research to show that the bunker biomass has declined slightly. Omega Protein can no longer claim that the stocks are completely healthy.

This, coupled with some problems in Chesapeake bunker spawning areas, (runoff, fertilizers, phoshpates, etc) has contributed to a measurable decline in the bunker biomass.

4. Tuna - are in a serious decline throughout all the regions of the world. I would agree that forage for them is a big part of this. However, unseen poachers offshore of the US and other countries are taking their toll on the numbers. Record prices of $500,000 and up for a bluefin in Japan are not helping things. I don't have the answers for this.

They put so many restrictons on US fishing for tuna, yet outside out waters there is a free-for-all going on, every day of the year the illegal netters can get their nets out. This is truly hurting us long-term, as more becomes known about the capacity of tuna to swim all over.


5. Sustainable fishing and harvests - You mentioned another problem area with comm fishermen - it seems they come through an area and wipe all the fish., there is no selective harvest.
First of all, I would respectfully say that it's hard to be selective when you're trawling big nets. The recent comm bass harvest off NC
(video on youtube)





shows that comms have shown they are not concerned with the resource.

A comm's job is to get in there, get as many fish as they can in a short time, and head for home. Unfortunately this brings situations where they end up with overages in the pulls they do.









Solutions?
I don't have any concrete answers for you, Bluewater. It seems to me we have to look at the picture where everything is inter-related, as you said.

Raising awareness is about the best hope we can achieve now. As more fishermen see the inter-connectedness, and focus away from "Well I'm fishing today and that's all I care about", perhaps some of them will start to put pressure on legislators, get involved, and behin educating others, like you have done.

I don't know about you guys, but my interest in promoting awareness is selfish. I WANT to continue fishing every day of my life that I am able to, I NEED to fish.

I don't want to see any closures or Moratoriums like they had in the 1980's. To me, it's not just about striped bass, tuna, sea bass, or flounder. The forage fish that these predators feed on is key to their long-term survival. As one who mostly fishes the surf, when we have no bait in the wash, there are usually no fish.

When you have less forage fish inshore and offshore, the fish move quickly through an area and on to areas where there is more forage. We all saw that with the tuna in 2010. There is a delicate balance there.

Thank you for trying to raise awareness, Bluewater.

[DarkSkies]

I don't see any concrete solutions near-term, but raising awareness can always help.

So, people, what are your thoughts, comments as this applies to striped bass, and inshore and surf fishing for other species? What have your experiences been, what have you seen?

Have you noticed any trends in the last 10 years as related to the type of fishing you do and the types of, or lack of, any species of forage fish?

[DarkSkies]

That's what a good friend of mine says. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. This thread is dedicated to all kinds of bait we might run into.

Please realize that most of these vimeo videos won't be edited because I'm too busy. As I find the time to edit and re-post, I will.

The cursor is your friend, if ya reach a boring part just skip ahead a bit. That's about all the advice I can give, and feedback and comments are always appreciated. Thanks