Defining bait in the water

[DarkSkies]

This was my response...


[Quote:]
Originally Posted by Bluewater sportfishing
I can say right now if we dont come up with something soon to protect the near shore bait supply were not gonna be catching anything.

Same can hold true for the near shore Herring in the gulf of maine. It took 8 years for the mid water trawl boats to wipe them out....8 years!!!
on the grand scheme of things thats horrendous. A fish that was once so plentifull is now gone from the waters. End result is the fish that ate the herring have moved offshore..way offshore.
The science was wrong, the boats were told they could take this much and sustain the fishery, they were warned by Canada that taking that much will destroy the herring stocks, they (noaa) didnt listen and look at what we have now, a train wreck. Who is accountable for that? [/QUOTE]




You made some very valid points here Bluewater. Thanks for trying to stir up interest.

I would like to add a few observations, not to provoke any arguments, these are merely my opinions and what I have seen:

1. Bunker -I went to Mass for some of the hearings about striped bass. A universal complaint from the comm and rec guys up there is that there aren't bunker around in the numbers they remember seeing just 10 short years ago. That is one of the reasons they say their bass catches have declined. Or even if they feel they have not declined, they say the bass are harder to find in concentrations like they used to.

2. Herring - You're on the money about your herring observations, all part of the food chain. Unfortunately a lot of us don't get involved until it's too late.

Who cares about a bunch of herring in the inshore and midshore waters? Apparently not a lot of us. My theory on that, without starting an argument, is that a lot of us only get involved when we see the damage or less fish in our home waters, and then begin to question why. By that time the damage is already done to a large extent. But that's the way it's always been, a small % of guys worrying about the big picture, and most everyone else who says "Aw it doesn't affect me directly, I can't be bothered writing that letter, or registering my protest, let someone else do it"

I'm not ranting about that. I have come to accept it as part of human nature. So it's a great thing that posts like yours raise awareness. The next logical step is to figure out what do do once awareness is raised, and find a fisherman PAC that will get involved to represent your interests.

3. Jet Ski Brian's pics and the decline of the bunker biomass -I don't want to call the netters "rapers of the sea" because that is too loaded a word. Omega protein will always be here, and even if you curtailed their operations, they would still contract with "local fishermen" to buy their bunker from them.

I don't feel the bunker biomass is in a freefall, based on conversations I've had with seasoned fishermen all up and down the coast.
But I did state above that there are not as many bunker and herring in N England now, that's fact.
And...there is now research to show that the bunker biomass has declined slightly. Omega Protein can no longer claim that the stocks are completely healthy.

This, coupled with some problems in Chesapeake bunker spawning areas, (runoff, fertilizers, phoshpates, etc) has contributed to a measurable decline in the bunker biomass.

4. Tuna - are in a serious decline throughout all the regions of the world. I would agree that forage for them is a big part of this. However, unseen poachers offshore of the US and other countries are taking their toll on the numbers. Record prices of $500,000 and up for a bluefin in Japan are not helping things. I don't have the answers for this.

They put so many restrictons on US fishing for tuna, yet outside out waters there is a free-for-all going on, every day of the year the illegal netters can get their nets out. This is truly hurting us long-term, as more becomes known about the capacity of tuna to swim all over.


5. Sustainable fishing and harvests - You mentioned another problem area with comm fishermen - it seems they come through an area and wipe all the fish., there is no selective harvest.
First of all, I would respectfully say that it's hard to be selective when you're trawling big nets. The recent comm bass harvest off NC
(video on youtube)





shows that comms have shown they are not concerned with the resource.

A comm's job is to get in there, get as many fish as they can in a short time, and head for home. Unfortunately this brings situations where they end up with overages in the pulls they do.









Solutions?
I don't have any concrete answers for you, Bluewater. It seems to me we have to look at the picture where everything is inter-related, as you said.

Raising awareness is about the best hope we can achieve now. As more fishermen see the inter-connectedness, and focus away from "Well I'm fishing today and that's all I care about", perhaps some of them will start to put pressure on legislators, get involved, and behin educating others, like you have done.

I don't know about you guys, but my interest in promoting awareness is selfish. I WANT to continue fishing every day of my life that I am able to, I NEED to fish.

I don't want to see any closures or Moratoriums like they had in the 1980's. To me, it's not just about striped bass, tuna, sea bass, or flounder. The forage fish that these predators feed on is key to their long-term survival. As one who mostly fishes the surf, when we have no bait in the wash, there are usually no fish.

When you have less forage fish inshore and offshore, the fish move quickly through an area and on to areas where there is more forage. We all saw that with the tuna in 2010. There is a delicate balance there.

Thank you for trying to raise awareness, Bluewater.

[DarkSkies]

I don't see any concrete solutions near-term, but raising awareness can always help.

So, people, what are your thoughts, comments as this applies to striped bass, and inshore and surf fishing for other species? What have your experiences been, what have you seen?

Have you noticed any trends in the last 10 years as related to the type of fishing you do and the types of, or lack of, any species of forage fish?

[BassBuddah]

I'll give you a LI example. From the boat and the surf in our 2010 fall run, we had quite alot of baitfish at Montauk for a few weeks, mostly whitebait.
Toward the end of Oct and into Nov/Dec, there was a huge body of sandeels set up between shinnecock and moriches. The bulk of the bigger bass came from that area. They were keying in on the sandeels. Other areas like the rockaways and breezy had not much going on. Only 25 or so nautical miles distance, and it was like night and day. As the run progressed, you knew not to go anywhere other than where that hot action is, why bother. So the bait/forage concentration is key in any fishing excursion.

[Doublerunner]

The forage fish are also important to keeping the water clear. Menhaden are filter feeders that eat up a lot of bacteria. When ocean floors get wiped out from trawlers they have no vegetation left to eat so they move to deeper waters. No inshore vegetation and no inshore baitfish are contributing to the inshore dead zones that continue to grow along our coastlines. Fix the baitfish issues and you'll see an improvement inshore all along our coastlines both in better fish and a healthier ecosystem

[dogfish]

Fix the baitfish issues and you'll see an improvement inshore all along our coastlines both in better fish and a healthier ecosystem

Well-said.

[fishinmission78]

As for all the small varieties of forage fish I have seen, both in the back bay and the surf, when you have a lot of the same bait you don't always have bass, like the mullet in the surf now which basically are a small bluefish soup kitchen. The best bass action I get is when the surf is loaded with different kinds of forage, killies (near inlets), rainfish, spearing, herring, and everything but bunker (peanuts are ok because they are small). All small fish like that and if it's going to go off it will. Find a place where there is no bait at all and you might as well just move on. I also include crabs in this category. If guys see no fish with tails they assume there is no bass, but bass never turn down crabs or shrimp and will eat them in the absence of anything else.

[DarkSkies]

Bump for this thread. Some of my best successes this Winter have been related to knowing exactly what the forage fish were in each area.

The more we think we know the less we find out we know, in the grand scheme of things....

A friend was fishing the ocean last week, and kept getting light hits...
It bothered him not knowing what those fish were....

I suggested they could be ling, bergalls, small seabass or whiting....
He went back the next night, with some clam,,,,.and found out they were 12-14" puppy drum,,,,,


Puppy drum in NJ in March, what are the odds?
It may seem like a freak of nature to have them here,,,but knowing what and where helps you to better target the fish travelling through that area.....

[DarkSkies]

The best bass action I get is when the surf is loaded with different kinds of forage, killies (near inlets), rainfish, spearing, herring, and everything but bunker (peanuts are ok because they are small). All small fish like that and if it's going to go off it will. .

Spot on, FnM.....I'll come back to this when I get a chance.....the seasonal patterns forage fish follow are key to finding fish when it seems there are none around.