Commercial and Recreational Fishermen -- Separating Truth from Myth

[bunkerjoe4]

Since starting this site, a few people who are helping with the promotions have been to many different places. I have also traveled to some new places, and had great times meeting lots of interesting people.

We have had discussions among ourselves about the many myths going back and forth between recreational and commercial fishermen. Several recreational fishermen we have encountered have expressed a great dislike for the commercial guys, blaming them for everything from the decline in the striper stocks to being greedy in the herring and bunker industries.

Meanwhile, many commercial fishermen we have met, and taken some time to listen to, are upset about the mis-perceptions and blame placed on them by people who read one comment somewhere on the internet, decide it must be true, and want to restrict the commercial guys from making a living.

So how does one separate the truth from the BS?

Where can one find true statements, and solid info to back that up?

What would happen if all commercial fishing was eliminated? Who would satisfy the growing worldwide demand for fish and fish products?

How can one become better informed on these issues, in order to make better decisions and participate in meaningful discussions?

I thought I would make a small attempt to promote a dialogue here to help people analyze some of the situations. Folks can use this info when making their own choices, instead of being influenced by unfounded rumors.

I have seen some of these discussions turn into shouting matches on other boards. I will give people great latitude to express their opinions here, that's part of mature rational discussions.

If you have any valid evidence to back your statement or opinion, please submit it with your statement. If this thread does turn into a shouting match, I would be forced to edit or delete posts that attack the character of others.

At then end of the day, no matter what walk of life we come from, many are drawn here because we love fishing. That's no different for commercials or recreationals. We all get up every day, and have to work hard to support our families and try for a better future for them.

Bearing that in mind, feel free to air any opinions here, even if they are resentments, as long as you don't personally attack the motives of another member. Back up your opinions when you can, it will add to your credibility.

Even if you can't back up your opinions with data, but have anecdotal evidence, it would be great to hash it out here.

Let's see if we can get a clearer understanding of the perceptions that create hard feelings, and learn something in the process.

[bunkerjoe4]

Let's see if I can start this off. One of my friends had a great conversation with a commercial fisherman from Massachusetts.

Fact or fiction?: Commercial guys indiscriminately target all fish, and dump thousands of dead fish overboard, thereby wasting our precious resources. How true is this, and to what extent?

The conversation that explained this scenario went something like this -- one Massachusetts commercial guy had his nets out for flounder, commercial limit of something like 200lbs/day.(I'm not quite sure about this figure, anyone with more specifics feel free to correct this and any figures in this thread)

One day he got a true bonanza, way over 1000 lbs of flounder in the net on one pull. He knew he couldn't bring them into port, so the conversation with officials allegedly went something like this:

"Hey, I got a little overage, dragged over 1000 lbs of flounder, they're dead, anyway I can add these to my quota, or give to someone else?"

Reply: "Well, gotta check with some people, hang tight, don't come into port yet, we'll get back to you"

2 hrs later no reply. Meanwhile his men want to get home to their families. He makes the call again:

"So what did the officials decide? I can't hang back here forever?

Reply: "Well, we can't make an exception here, or we gotta make one for everyone. You can only bring 2oo lbs of that fish in, gotta dump the rest."




So there you have it, an honest commercial fisherman following the law. (And I understand commercial fishermen are not always honest -- there was a case of a Sheepshead Bay captain who got caught the 3rd time dragging illegally for stripers -- made the news last year. There will always be bad apples in every bunch).





It would have been easy for him to call another commercial, and offload the excess.

It would have been easy for the bureaucrats to allow him the overage, and give it to food banks, or many institutions that would be glad to have it.

It would have been easier still for them to apply it against his yearly quota, like they do sometimes in Alaska. But that would mean his guys would not get as many fishing days, and lose money they needed to feed their families weekly.

This seems like a case where the simplest solution is the hardest to reach. Why should that be?



This, folks, is but one of many of the real anecdotes how fisheries management works, on a day to day basis. To the guy who originally related this story, I hope we have related it without any inaccuracies. If there are any, I apologize ahead of time. I welcome any input from the original guy, or anyone else who may have come across something like this, and wants the public to know how things really happen on a daily basis.

More of these stories to come, as they develop. Comments welcome at any time.

[CharlieTuna]

I think you're on point with this idea. Up here in New England, there is a great degree of argument about pinhookers. Problem is, commercial guys who have been doing it for years are good at it, don't make many mistakes.

Amateurs and new fishermen see this as an easy way to catch fish, and don't set up their rigs just right, and lose the fish. So you have a 40lb bass carrying around chunks of lead in its belly for years. You wouldn't believe the arguments in some of the forums here.

[fishlipper]

Wanted to ask who knows what the bunker story is in Great Kills?

Spent a few hours in the morning the other day talking to a coupla Sr citizens. They're mad as hell, and seem to be accurate in their stories, but I have no solid proof, just the angry words of about 10 guys who go there every day to hang out.

This is what I heard happened:

1. bunker have always been filling that harbor, no problem, enough for all.
2. 2 years ago, a Staten Island commercial guy, and a Jersey commercial guy, were (allegedly) netting way more than everyone else, almost ruining the resource.
3. Last year, commercial netters were banned, and the SI guy (allegedly) had his boat impounded for being caught there too many times.
4. this year, in conjunction with the tackle shops, laws were passed to allow the commercial guys a permit.
5. (Allegedly), each SI tackle shop is allowed to have one guy net for them under the terms of the permit.
6. (Allegedly) these commercial guys are taking way more than enough for one tackle shop, coming to the bay 3 times a day to net all the bunker they can.

I am a newcomer to SI, and I realize there are 2 sides to every story. I spent a few hours there Sat morning, and along with the seniors there, I saw these guys net many hundreds of bunker.

There were 3 and 4 guys on each commercial boat, when there is only (allegedly) supposed to be 2.

This might sound like no big deal, but I talked to one Sr Citizen who (allegedly) had his life threatened by the bunker guys. The other guys who were there confirmed this.

How tough is it to threaten a 65 year old man?

Again, I don't know the whole story, and would appreciate if any one could help explain this.

But I'll try to paint this picture for the people out there, and see what their opinion is:

I stood there and watched as groups of older men, some as old as 85 , try in vain to get the few bunker that were scattered away from the netters. A few of these guys were disabled, and had some sort of injury or other, so they couldn't cast like a younger guy could.

All I know is it was pitiful to watch these older guys cast 40 and 50 times, just to snag one bunker so they could go fishing for the day.

I'm trying to keep within bunkerjoes guidelines, but what I saw made me feel bad for these guys.

Commercials were probably operating within the law, but isn't there anything that can be done to help these Senior guys get enough bunker to go fishing for a day?

Aren't there any local StatenIsland politicians or Assemblypersons who could address this so everyone is happy?

What would they do if they couldn't go fishing? I talked to one guy who has been going there for 80 years. you wouldn't believe the stories these guys could tell you about the park, the fishing, and life in general.

I took some pics of the boats they say are coming in 3 times a day. Again, I have no proof this is true, just going by the words of 10 angry Senior citizens.

Why does it have to be that when you get old, no one seems to wanna listen to you anymore unless you are a member of AARP or a PAC?


Here's some pics:

[fishlipper]

more

[fishlipper]

more

[captnemo]

I didn't much understand how they got away with that. We shoot over there for bunker, it's a great spot. In NJ the commercials have to stay 6/10 of a mile away from the beach, or something like that. I always thought the NY laws were more restrictive. When there are no bunker in NJ, you can always find them on your side. I thought that was because the NY laws were tougher.

[dogfish]

It's crazy they allow them in the harbor like that. up here, bunker run in cycles, and we don't always see them. Great numbers in the past few years, but that could change.

[ledhead36]

Had no idea they could come in that close.

[jmerc1]

This issue in Great Kills Park has been a problem for some time now. The fishermen who fish the park can tell you tons of stories but all you have to do is come down to the harbor any day and you can see for yourself. Were trying to get a group together to look into what can be done before its to late. 4 to 6 and sometimes 8 boats netting bunker all day has got to have a negative impact on the bunker population. We all have heard the stories of how great fishing was back when, the stories of the good old days, well those days are gone and there isnt much we can do about the past but we certainly can protect the future. There has to be some happy medium where the commercial guys and the recreational guys can live together. The whiting are gone, the blowfish are gone the eels are gone, will the bunker be next? Will we be telling our children stories of the good old days in the future or will we get together and do the right thing here and now so we can tell them how we made a difference. Something must be done before its to late.

[wish4fish]

i was there a months ago on my uncles boat. he went this week, and said it took an hour to get enough bunker in the morning. i don't want to start problems with all the pro fishermen because people like my uncle get bunker everytime they fish, even when they are not fishing great kills. its the biggest free bait store in the water. but of there are less and less, pretty soon the big bass will leave. sux.

[stripercrazy]

There has to be some happy medium where the commercial guys and the recreational guys can live together. The whiting are gone, the blowfish are gone the eels are gone, will the bunker be next? Will we be telling our children stories of the good old days in the future or will we get together and do the right thing here and now so we can tell them how we made a difference. Something must be done before its to late.

Hey,man I hear ya. that place is like the bunker nursery. not the only place, in jbay and LI there are some other consistent bays and harbors for bunker, but EVERYone and their brother knows you can get bunker at GK.

So you said you were trying to get people together, where do I sign? How can anything realistically be done about this if the politicians already signed off on it? Let me know, maybe we can organize something. Or if you want letters sent, just tell me where to send it.

[stormchaser]

I would sign something, or send a letter if i knew of where to send one. Just let us know, man.

[porgy75]

I don't know much about this. You would think that the commercial fishermen would be the ones having lots of restrictions to help keep the population of the fish increasing. I am always reading aobut recreational guys having to put up with limits. Where is the fairness?

[stripercrazy]

I am always reading aobut recreational guys having to put up with limits. Where is the fairness?

Where is the fairness that on the Island a surf guy can only catch and keep one bass, (+ one over 40") but a guy on a headboat can keep 2?
Where is the fairness that some of the crab traps in the back bays are there almost all year, or the fyke nets that are there 24/7/365 in certain areas? Then there are less crabs left, and how about the small fluke the commercials can keep as opposed to our size limits?

[Stripercoast1]

Here is what I know.
Personality differances
Commercial fisherman, fish for money, fish are money, and any regulation is percieved as resticting their income. Each and every fish they can catch has a dollar value on it. I lived it for my entire youth. Fishing with my old man sucked, plain and simple, no fun allowed. I will never forget the "60 Minutes" episode when Ed Bradley went aboard a Glocester dragger out to the Grand banks. It was the last trip out before federal regulation would close the cod and haddock grounds during the spawn. As they approached the grounds, and the captain was bitching about the closure, and how much money he was making due to the dwindling supply, a school of squid appeared on the sonar. The captain tapped the screen and said to Bradley, and I quote, " See That. That is squid,... When the cod and haddock are gone, people will eat squid."
Recreational fisherman fish for many reasons, and none of them involve money, or an income. We fish for pleasure or to put a fillet on the dinner table once in a while. Anyone that says they are helping the family budget by fishing is full of it, The actual cost of a flounder from a study I read once after expenses is somewhere around 10 bucks a pound.

The commercial fishing industry will tie up any and all legislation designed to protect dwindling stocks with high dollar lawyers for years before any implamentation can be passed. They use the heritage argument as a trump card. I come from a construction back ground, maybe I should use my heritage to get the feds to build houses because I need work.

The bad apples

Many commercial fisherman and recreational anglers will sell fish outside of the legal limitations. I know this as I have been witness to it. I know for a fact that some, and I don't mean a low percentage, will catch their legal quota, turn them in and return to the location of success. Boat another legal quota and sell them direct to restaurants, fish mongers, and the general public. A great number of recreational anglers will do the same, justifying their actions as off setting the family budget, while keeping the kids involved in healthy outdoor activities. Nothing gives me greater pleasure than the look on someones face when I refuse the $50.00 I have been offered for a Bass as I release it back to the water. It would be easy for me to make over a grand a week selling Bass to restaurants that I could sell them too through the kitchen door. These same restaurants support the illegal sales of commercially caught Stripers, undocumented against the legal quotas every day. Quotas are in place to protect stocks and insure the healthy population of any species. Most recreational fisherman understand this as it is intended, virtually every Commercial fisherman I know, and talk to, see's quotas as something to prohibit them from making a living to the potential they can relize. Something they need to work around.

I think I will stop here, my blood pressure goes up every time I start on this issue.

Remember, I lived it.

[Stripercoast1]

1 more thing, that indicates the differance between the two types of fisherman. When the Closures came through on Stripers, My father put his equipment away, sold his boat, and has not wet a line since. There is not enough money to be made fishing for Bass anymore.

[seamonkey]

Without the quota's there will be hardly any fish left. The commercial fisherman will be passing down a legacy of nothing to their future generations.