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Thread: How to: Reading the water

  1. #41
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    Default Reading the water - beaches

    Inner bar changes:
    Another beach scenario that I have seen over the last few years is the inner bar getting pushed up on the beach due to erosion. You will have the situation of wading through some water to get to the exposed bar at low tide.

    1-What you have at low tide is a sandbar on land, in which that water you wade through at low tide will be a trough at high tide(much deeper).

    You are safer to walk to a break in the trough to enter the exposed bar. That break will be a cut when the tide is in(much deeper) The water your casting in is actually the outer bar.

    If the fish are there thats the only place they will be unless they are way out where another bar is forming.

    2-the bar you were fishing on will remain a bar just back underwater as the tide rises.

    3-When the water starts rising the waves are going to start slamming that ledge of the bar and filling the trough behind you.
    If you are not paying attention you could end up in a bad place. b Where you walked in will be going underwater. When that bar appears to be getting smaller to stand on, its time to pack up and get out of there.

    4-Try not to stray too far from the break you came in on.
    That will be your safest way out if you get side tracked. If it starts to get covered look for water rushing in and out that will be where you came in. That little bit of moving water can trip you up. be careful and the sand will be getting softer.

    5-I don't mean this to sound totally unsafe but its not one of the best beach scenarios for the new guys. You just need to use your head and know the tides. Constantly pay attention to whats behind you as well.
    You will learn how to negotiate these situations. If its real bad stay out of there. You will find fishable places somewhere else.
    Last edited by DarkSkies; 01-10-2010 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Added sentence breaks.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaminofishin View Post
    Great information!!! I have spent a lot of time throwing black bombers into an inlet current running full blast, thinking I was doing the right thing to get into some big fish and catching skunks instead. Time to fish smarter.

    One other question, is there anything that you just don't fish at inlets because it's a waste of time? I'm wondering about things like metals and even using bait.

    Thanks to everyone for the lessons.

    Metals are good any time bluefish are around. If they are chasing bait you will see them. If not use a heavier tin and vary the retrieve until you see what they want.

    Bait is good for when the current slows down, like near slack tide. Otherwise you will spend all your time peeling weeds off of it. One difference is if you are going for tog in the rocks with crabs. They will find the bait in most stages, but tend to back off a bit when current is strongest, and i have not found them to be most active at exact slack, you need a small amount of current for them. Hope this helps.

  3. #43
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    Great thread.

  4. #44
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    When I hit the suds this spring I will have bucktails ranging from 1-4 ounces with some pork rind. I figure I will be using some shock leader that I will tie direct to the jig, and will probably use a barrell swivel to connect the leader to the line. I'll have a few Bombers, probably black for night and school bus or another light color for daytime. I'll still keep my Popper for daybreak, and maybe dust off that old Danny Plug that hasn't seen the water in years.

    I'll pick up some new Korkers and go with foul weather pants instead of waders so I don't sink like an anchor if/when I go in the drink.

    I'll probably spend a lot of time throwing the bucktails at night, both in the inlets and on the beach, hoping to get confident in my ability to fish the lure right under different conditions. When the inlet current slows down I hope to have an eel to throw out and let swim around. I have fished them from boats and they can be a problem.

    Again, I appreciate the great advice. How's my plan look so far?

  5. #45
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    The best way to keep an eel under control is too ice them down.

    I use 2 five gallon buckets one inside the other you don't want a smaller bucket on top you need some room in the bottom bucket.

    The top bucket you will drill holes in the bottom of it.(This is for the eels slime to drip into the bottom bucket or they will suffocate in their own slime)

    So now the buckets are set up:You will also need a burlap bag or a couple of onion sacks I like the onion sacks they are easier to wash off.

    Bring the buckets with you to pick up the eels so they are not in a bag of water that will kill them faster.

    Put the eels in the top bucket the bags over the eels and ice on top of that(Flaked ice is to compact for this cubes are better)( you do not want the ice directly on the eels) you dont' need to bury them just a little ice will do the thing is keep the eels cool and damp this is where burlap is a little better.

    The ice will slow them down easier to hook less inclined to get an eel ball while baiting anyway.As the ice melts it will wash enough slime out of the top bucket into the bottom bucket so they don't die.

    Don't cover the bucket that will defeat the whole purpose bungee it down somewhere you don't want eels loose you will never find them all until its too late

    I know there are plenty of new mesh bags out there but I have kept eels alive for 3-4 days iced down just keep them away from critters and the sun.And did you ever try to get one lively eel out of a bag of 6-12.

    When they hit the water is when they come back to life, only fish eels w/ a slowing current or you are going to have one mess on your hands.

    Just a bit of advice if you catch one bass on an eel don't change it you'll have a better chance to catch more bass on that one than a new one, as long as the tail curls when you hold it up its good to go.You might want to move this I just realized maybe not the spot for it just got caught up in this thread.

  6. #46
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    Hey, Surfstix,

    I'll gladly carry the buckets with the ice and the eels. Let's go fishing.

  7. #47
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    I'll can also carry lunch and coffee.

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    Hey, Dreaminofishin, I wondered if ya know he lives in LI. About 140 miles from ya as the crow flies. A bit of a hike. If you're up to it no problem, but you might have some NJ water closer to ya first.

    We in NJ get the fish first anyway. You'll start to read reports from Delaware shores, Poverty Beach, Slaughter Beach, the CM rip areas, Graveling Point, etc. Then the bass will gradually filter into the Delaware and NJ back bays first after some start spawning in the Chessy.

    There will be another huge body (allegedly or hopefully ) that is drawn up into the Delaware bay, NY Bight, Hudson and some of the smaller freshwater rivers to spawn. They'll be busy doing that till somewhere near May.

    The best time to start hitting LI is after the water here goes towards 60 and above. The bigger fish start moving N following the bunker and seeking cooler water. That's the time to follow them if ya wanna do the stripercoast thing.

    Do a search on:
    "striped bass migration (exact copy of what I typed to the left)

    You'll find 3 threads here on that topic. It's an interesting read. It's a good way to keep from goin nuts too.

    I almost convinced myself to hit a deep water spot I know of this weekend. It's really not worth the time, but just to get out there would be a welcome relief from the boredom.

    Spring can't come soon enough.

  9. #49
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    I'll take you up on that Dreamin as soon as I recover from my surgeries it might be next year though this upcoming season is already a done deal.

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    I fished with DS in the fall. I got there before he did. Hard south wind blowin, as I walk on the beach there's 40 guy's to my left, a pocket right in front of me with 1 guy fishing clams. I go just right of the pocket, why you ask when everyone else was to the left, simple south wind blowin, I casted out over the breakers and let the current and wind take my metal thru the pocket. guess who caught fish that day .
    DS witnessed it. that's reading the water. thanks Bob

  11. #51
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    your welcome killie

    Pay attention to what history has taught us or be prepared to relive it again

  12. #52
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    Default reading the water for structure

    I found an article on barses by Russ Bassdozer. Pretty interesting. This guy is a great writer and full of sarcasm and humor.


    http://www.bassdozer.com/



    By Russ Bassdozer

    Used to fish in New England with a wild and wooly sort who first got introduced to us as "Massachusetts Mike." He was a great surf fisherman. He caught the tar out of the giant cows that were abundant back then, and he rubbed elbows at the top of the surfcasting pyramid. But he was a tough, vain and arrogant rogue. This really wasn't his fault as it seems that most top rungs on the surfcasting ladder are blessed with such personalities.

    Nevertheless, Mike deserved a special title fit only to himself, and we soon changed his name to "Masshole Mike." It stuck like a sharp hook in the eye and that's how he was forever after known on every beach and rock in the striper kingdom. As you would probably expect of Masshole, he relished his new name, and if he ever reads this, there is no doubt he will surely convince himself and others that this article is proclaiming his prowess in the surf for all the Internet to know. Unfortunately for him, Masshole Mike is not what this article is all about, but it is about a closely related topic - barses. Are you interested? Please read on.

    How does one identify a barse?
    You don't. Typically someone has to tell you about their barse when they lay dying and they are convinced they will never fish again. It is often best to speed up this process by poisoning the old barse or backing up over him with your truck when he is preoccupied with wrggling out of his waders. By the way, make sure you have a tape recorder handy for any last minute revelations at that moment.

    How big is the typical barse?
    The term, "barse", is used to define a specific, usually FIXED spot, often of hard composition - like rock beds, docks, bridge stanchion, shoals, mussel beds - but also other rather PERMANENT spots such as weed beds. A most important part of the definition includes that a barse will PERSIST from season to season with only subtle changes to it.

    Now, the barse itself is not often, for example, an entire dock, but maybe only one hole where you can cast uptide and let your jig drift down and swing up off bottom as it goes under the dock. In this example, let's assume that there is a channel or ridge that comes down the shoreline parallel to the beach, and a school of bass will always pass through the area using the deep end of the slope like Indians on a trail moving single file through the woods. The barse is where you can intercept their passage where the trail goes under the dock. Their will be a constant stream of bass moving along the trail when they are actively using it.

    Another type of barse is bigger, like on rugged bottom where a weed and mussel bank forms for whatever reason where there is often a slope going from deep to shallow water. Also a rock bed in such a sloping area, or even just one or two big rocks positioned just right! In these barses, there are all the living conditions that satisfy a striper's needs, including food, shelter, etc.

    As wandering or migrating striper schools use scouts to locate these barses, they will move into them and set up feeding stations during the tidal periods when they instinctively can get the bait disadvantaged and driven down into the school by wind, tide, the bait's blind compulsion to migrate on that tide, or other bass or predators uptide that are causing the bait to flee down into their feeding stations at the barse.

    The scouts will continue to draw the school up to feed at this barse until the bait has left the area of the barse...for various reasons...including that the bass may have decimated it all. Then this wandering or migratory school will move off the barse to seek more productive barses that haven't been chewed down lately (they don't call 'em cows for nothing).

    Now, the best part of barses is that "resident" bass always occupy them too. Why? Because there is everything a bass needs in a barse. It's like a 711 store that's always open. If the barse has enough food for 100 or 10 resident bass, then there's 100 or 10 residents in there all the time, 24 hours a day. If it can only support 3 bass, that's the amount of residents that will always live there.

    Ready for a math puzzle? If a barse can only routinely hold 10 fish, and 8 are already residing there and 5 new fish try to take up residence...that means 3 fish have to voluntarily leave or involuntarily be forced out of the barse by the ones most determined to stay. Big ones will look to confront any and all others, small ones will try to remain hidden deep in the barse where they can't be found by the others. Eventually, 3 fish will have to depart the barse as there is not enough sustenance in it for all of them.

    However, resident fish are not "all there" for whatever reason. They may be sick, tagged, a little smelly or squirrelly in their pea brains, so their school has made them outcasts, and they live like homeless (a striper's home is it's school) on the barse. Therefore, you can tell when a ravenous school has moved on because you will start plucking out ony residents again.

    Some residents will have noticable problems, sometimes they may smell foul, or their bodies are cheesy, or tail rot, or one-eyed, or tagged, whatever deformities, etc. Many residents will look perfectly fine to our eye, but their school found something about them to be a risk to the school's well-being and therefore an untolerable individual fish to be forced out of the school.

    Sometimes during heavy migratory periods, waves of fresh-run schools will set up in the barse night after night for long durations of a few days to a few weeks. Again, you know when you are between schools or sadly, when an entire WAVE of a migration has finished passing you by, because the residents will once again reclaim the barse...could be new, not right fish staying behind because they can't keep up with their at the moment... could be the same not right fish as before the fresh-runs passed through who are now coming out of hiding.

    Either way, the return of these residents, often referred to as "handicaps" is a sad sign indeed during migratory seasons. Oh, other big waves may come through soon, but you just waved "Ta Ta, see you next year!" to the departing hordes! The handicaps are like the guys who clean up after the end of the parade.

    How do you approach a barse?
    You absolutely must make sure that you buy the barse a big breakfast every time you come off the beach with him.

    Do you toss your lure right in the middle or do you skim the edges of the barse?
    I find that it is usually best to hit him in the middle on the back of the head with a 2 ounce bucktail that you are casting. I wouldn't recommend to just skim the edge, you probably will not get sufficient results out of the barse that way! Remember, the barse must be convinced that he'll never cast again before he'll pass along his spots to you! Have the tape recorder handy in case he does regain consciousness for a few minutes. He will probably be incoherent or babbling a lot, and you just kind of have to go with the flow as they say.

    Does a barse ever shut up (or stop holding bass) or is it an endless source of bass that one keeps to oneself if one finds a good size barse?
    Well, I have never known a good-sized barse not to be hungry at breakfast time. All kidding aside though, as far as an endless source of bass, that can be a good way to look at a barse. There will ALWAYS be fish that want to get into your barse, and you should keep your barse to yourself and practice safe sex. If you pluck out 5 residents tonight, you can come back tomorrow and find that they have been replaced by 5 new ones.

    Are barses different in the surf, jetty, inlet or river?
    Yes and no. The only difference is in their permanence - or more accurately their persistence over time. Of course, jetties, rocks, bivalve beds, weed beds and other natural or man-made structures have the tenacity to persist as barses over time, but we start to lose the meaning of the term when we include ever-changing sand beaches that may have great spots on them such as a bowl formed behind a shallow bar on a sandy beach...nice place for a bass to habitually visit on the tops of the tides, but they would not want to live there in there at low tide.

    Also, this bowl may get flattened out by a good storm, only to take some weeks to reshape itself back into into a productive fish-holding bowl. So yes, this is a good and constantly productive bowl, but it is not a barse as we have defined it above; not a 711 store that never closes, and not having the capacity to accommodate resident denizens 24 hours a day. Of course, this bowl is definitely a good spot, but it does not qualify by meeting all of the requirements to be defined as a classic "barse".

    How come some barses only seem to produce on one tide (or part thereof) but not the other?
    Flood or ebb? Let's get into a discussion of incoming versus outgoing water. Migratory movements, non-migratory feeding treks, or frequent instinctive nomadic wanderings of schools are often accomplished via a "rachet" effect using the tide.

    Think of how you change a tire...rachet up one notch, then hold...rachet up another notch, then hold. Bass frequently rachet up wherever they are going on one tide, not heavily feeding during that, then hold for the other tide in as comfortable a holding place as they can locate...your basshole...hopefully, but not always, finding an available food supply big enough for the entire school to gorge themselves. If so, they will settle in and gorge themselves for that particular tide or portion thereof.

    For example, a classic pattern for non-migratory schools around inlet jetties is to use an incoming tide during the mid-afternoon to sweep the bass far up into the back bay, where they will scout for bait as they sweep into the back, often looking for big pelagics such as herring, bunkers and such.

    They will start driving this bait to concentrate it into denser schools as the outgoing starts around dinner time, and then push them towards the jetty on the outgoing, pinning them against the sides of the jetty by sundown or shortly thereafter and take feeding stations in the rip out front. If there are big pelagics to be pushed down, then this pattern will be productive for 2-3 days twice a month when the tide cycles around to a mid-afternoon flood.

    Well, that's all for now...my phone's ringing and I betcha it's some barse who wants me to take him to my barse. Fat chance. He'll have to kill me first.
    Regards, Bassholedozer

  13. #53
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    Very informative seamonkey thanks for posting it.

  14. #54
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    Default Tides

    A quickie on tides,naturally we have 2 high and 2 low.

    Spring or Moon Tide:These happen twice a month they cause very high and very low tides.

    They also occur around the full and new moon when the gravitational pull is the strongest.

    Fish feed when the water is moving:So it makes sense to fish around the new and full moon phases because the water will be moving quicker. Personally I like to fish 2 days before and 2 days after a full moon.(Actually I like to fish whenever I can)

    The other thing with a full moon is sometimes it casts too much light on the water if this is the case I will bring a couple of lighter colored lures because they could make it happen if darker is failing you.I will either fish the shadow lines or seek a darker area.

    Neap Tides:Which occur the other 2 weeks of the month naturally around the 1st & 3rd quarter moon phase.These are generally weaker tides because of less gravitational pull. This is a good time to fish bait in the inlets
    for you bait guys.The fish are still around during these tides you just need to fish the moving water.

    This same pattern repeats itself every 2 weeks,another thing is the tide changes about one hour later everyday.So if you had good action at a certain spot one day, if that pattern is going to repeat itself the next day it will most likely happen one hour later keep a log and it will start giving you some insight on where and when you caught and you can actually calculate where the fishing may be good & also pretty accurately.But nothing is written in stone.

    These are just the basics of tides there are books on this,Tides are caused by many factors moon,sun,wind and gravitational forces caused by different aligments of the sun,moon and earth.I feel the basics have served me well.

  15. #55
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    Bridges:Are very productive due to the lighting above which casts shadows on the water which in turn attracts bait.Fish these shadow lines (I think this was discussed in another thread) Don't cast into them bring the offering to them using the water flow (rubber shads and bucktails are best) this way it looks natural to the bass and they don't get spooked.

    The concrete foundations and any other rising structure off the bottom that the bass can use will be where the bass are hiding waiting for a meal to get washed by w/ the tide and or current.(remember tide and current are two different things.)

    The bass use these structures because the water flows around them resulting in less current for them to hold and feed and also pass more oxygen over the gills. Bass love structure they don't like to leave it. On the turn of the tide they may just move to the other side of the structure they were in.They use this because it is the easiest way to feed and utilize the meal to the max by using the least amount of energy to feed.So they do not have to eat so much.Unlike bluefish that are usually eating non stop because they are always on the move and using most if not all of the energy they are getting from their food.

    Keep an eye out for rips and eddies by bridges this is good structure also at certain times.One thing I like to do if I have the room is stand at an angle to the bridge and cast out in front of the concrete foundations w/rubber shads and let them sink(you will need different wts. according to current) as they drift to the bridge stantcion or even slightly under I start a slow retrieve to try and coax the bass out of hiding.I fish every one I can reach.As the tide dies and the current is still running I like to fish parallel to the bridge and see what happens then I will switch sides and cast at an angle to the stantions on that side.

    If I'm fishing a bridge I will fish it hard with any method that jumps in my head if it doesn't happen I'll start fishing the shoreline with a large swimmer and try and pull something out of an eddy,rip or deep hole off the shore.This is a time when you stumble over new structure, take notes or if your young keep it in your head thats one less spot you need to find.I don't like to move much unless I'm on a beach, I feel the more time I spend in one area thats new to me
    the more I learn about it no matter what the results were.You can also move away from the bridge a little and toss some bait in the water if you like.

    If you frequent one spot and see familiar faces take mental notes on what they are doing and when they are doing it.Sometimes you get lucky and they will chat with you take mental notes.My cousin who started me w/offshore fishing when I was 8 always says till this day "Keep your mouth shut and your ears wide open you'll be surprised at what you learn"


    Structure is part one of the bass puzzle whether it be on the beach,inlet or in a river.Learning the different structures is #1 on the list then you can start to put the rest of the puzzle together.

  16. #56
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    By the way Seamonkey great post very informative.

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    Flats:
    Bass can be found in very low water you would be surprised.This is strictly night fishing when the boats are home.Did you ever see a bass with its chin all red and scraped up this from them digging w/ their snouts in search of food.This is a situation where the back of an inlet and a shallow flat meet, deep water on one side and practically none on the other. Incoming tide bait is getting pushed by and then they try to get to the flats for what they think is safety.Baitfish use the safety in numbers theory and bass use bait in numbers for a bigger meal.

    Walking the shoreline requires stealth mode no lights and no grinding of the boots in the gravel no walking in the water or the fish will get spooked. you need to place your cast as far out as possible and work it very slow back to the flats.Small lures are the go to (small bucktails,thin profile rubber lures(if the tide is up smaller swimming plugs shallow running w/ a teaser) you don't want big splashes. I would think the new rubber crabs would be good but I haven't given that a go yet)This is the perfect spot for a fly fisherman since the flies do not make much of a disturbance.

    This is very hard fishing because of all the mistakes that can be made such as making noises,digging through your bag( I don't bring one just carry what I want in a small organizer),your bail flipping over on a cast.

    The fish won't be stacked up on the flats but spread out along them searching for food sometimes they are just sitting in one spot resting and waiting for a crab to slide by.

    Mussel Beds and Sod Banks:
    Another good night spot again quiet is needed which is not easy to do walking through grass w/ mussels crushing under you.The bass love to cruise this area for grass shrimp and spearing.If it is very quiet and you really listen you can hear the bass slurping up the food.
    This is generally a spring thing for the bass they are coming to spawn up river.

    You need to try and figure where they are and cast ahead of them close to the bank and you may get some takers.These are often not large bass but they can be there.

    I have a spot in the spring comprised of mussel beds and I fish this spot as often as I can since starting in April we stay in our fifth wheel our rolling condo.This spot lights up when massive schools of bunker come in and the bluefish are just totally insane on a daily basis.One part of the river is a very tide related spot and just the opposite of what you would think this is an outgoing spot where the bunker move in and the blues follow you can almost time the fishing within 15 minutes all you need to see is the bunker and it will happen.These are 10lb. plus choppers. right at your feet just cast and the plug hits it gets smashed I like to take the kids because it no challenge for me.



    OK let me get back on track here This is a spot I have found through trial and error and watching the regulars.Kind of spying I guess, what trucks they drove where they fished,what plugs they used, what they caught when they fished and the occasional Good Morning. I lost a couple of weeks fishing but learned the place upside down & backwards.Out of that I knew where they fished,at what tides, if the wind switched where they moved and when they packed it up, this was a crew of 4 guys.I then applied that knowledge to fishing there and found my own spot when they saw me catching the bass while they caught blues they started talking now I'm the fifth guy although I do start earlier then them in the morning because thats when I catch the bass.But then they started asking how the hell do you get the bass everyday all I said was white sinking poppers and get it to the edge of the channel work it w/ short hard pops when they come for it stop the plug let it sink for a second and thats it and now they realized why I waded out as far as I could to reach the channel the blues were behind me and the bass were in front of me.Sorry that 2nd part sounds more like a story but read between the lines theres info in there.

  18. #58
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    I was looking at the different posts in this thread and realized it is a lot to digest. I'm taking notes from the different types of water and will read those the next time I go to the beach pre-season. Thanks guys for explaining this so well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowherder View Post
    I was looking at the different posts in this thread and realized it is a lot to digest. I'm taking notes from the different types of water and will read those the next time I go to the beach pre-season. Thanks guys for explaining this so well.
    Cowherder, some of these guys are pretty intense about their posts and give exceptional details. Their knowledge is amazing. There is something in them for everyone even those with experience.

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    Baitstealer, that is a nice chart, that tells me nothing. Thank you for posting it anyway. I did a search here, and surfstix1963 and dark have quite a comprehensive explanation. Here is is, hope that helps
    http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...ead.php?t=5633

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