And we close with the VFW salute to Hanoi Janewith the ultimate honor - urinal stickers in the men's room.
: (little blurry, but the message is clear)
Glad I had to take a leak so I could see that. Freedom isn't free.
Administrator
And we close with the VFW salute to Hanoi Jane
Glad I had to take a leak so I could see that. Freedom isn't free.
Administrator
Great job Dark.
Here's a link to the Public Trust Doctrine for those who have not read it yet.
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...t=public+trust
Keep up the good fight guys.Don't leave it up to someone else, your beach may be next on the list.
Senior Member
Couldn't make that meeting, glad a lot of guys did. Nice job on the pics and summary, DS.
Senior Member
Good report, Dark.
Administrator
Here's the latest from the North Shore Sun. Notice how the town tries to spin the Public Trust Doctrine. I still say they would lose in court. They play a bad poker game.
Article in North Shore Sun
There are some comments in here that should raise the blood pressure of any fisherman who reads this.
From the North Shore Sun web site :
New waves in Shoreham Beach feud
Fishermen aren't the only residents upset after town locks gate
By Peggy Spellman Hoey
Sun photo by Peter Blasl Manorville resident Pete Maniscalco said he likes to tap into the spiritual energy of Shoreham Beach. That is why he was disappointed to be locked out of the public beach earlier this month.
SHOREHAM--There's a new angle to the Shoreham Beach access feud, and it involves more than fishermen.
Brookhaven officials again made waves with residents over beach access after closing the front gate at Shoreham Beach Sept. 2, the first day after Labor Day and the end of the bathing season.
When the facility opened in May with new security measures that included a gate, booth, surveillance cameras, and bilingual "no fishing" signs, fisherman were informed they would be presented with an appearance ticket and possibly subject to a fine if they trespassed on the property.
The measures were introduced in response to past problems -- littering, vandalism and vagrancy -- which also impacted on adjacent properties owned by National Grid and the beach property owners' associations. The measures offended some fishermen who believed they had beach access rights that were being infringed upon.
With the latest closing, beachgoers and members of the business community are expressing concern over lack of communication between all the parties involved and are hoping in turn for a solution.
Though not a fisherman, Pete Maniscalco says he normally goes to Shoreham Beach to tap into its spiritual energy through meditation exercises. His plans were cut short recently when he found the front gate closed. When he called the Brookhaven Parks and Recreation Department, Mr. Maniscalco was told the beach was closed because it is "private," he said.
A North Shore Sun reporter who placed a phone call to the department that Tuesday was also told by a staffer that the beach was "kind of a private beach" and that officials were meeting on the issue the next day. Brookhaven officials later said the beach was closed after the bathing season ended then was ordered reopened until the end of September. The suggestion that the beach is considered private was later described as a miscommunication by town officials.
Brookhaven Spokesman Kevin Molloy said the beach will now be open daily from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. until the end of September. Officials, Mr. Molloy said, are discussing whether the beach, which was kept open until Oct. 7 last season, could be kept open longer. Mr. Molloy dismissed the alleged fishing ban by restating the town code designating the beach a bathing area where fishing is essentially prohibited.
Frequent beachgoer Kathye Marshall also expressed disappointment with the closing. She described the beach as a historical fishing spot shut down only recently to appease some waterfront property owners.
"It's upsetting," she said.
Though the beach has been reopened, Mr. Maniscalco said he has since formed "Friends of Shoreham Beach," a group he hopes will act as both stewards of the beach and an advisory group to the town on any issues that might arise from there.
"You don't close the beach -- that's not a solution," he said. "Let's find a way so everyone's needs can be met and we can all use [Shoreham Beach]."
Brookhaven Councilwoman Jane Bonner welcomed the idea of an advisory group for the beach by pointing out how successful they have been in other areas, such as Mount Sinai Harbor.
"The more people we have that help with our beaches, that's a wonderful thing," she said.
Brookhaven Business and Community Alliance members on Tuesday called for talks between the fishermen, the private property owners that live near Shoreham Beach and town officials, in an effort to reach a resolution of the issue. Some possible solutions raised during the meeting included the return of fishing to Shoreham Beach with added code enforcement and seeking fishing access at its old location on the National Grid property or elsewhere.
In recent weeks, fishermen such as Montauk Surf Casters Association President Willy Young have floated the idea of challenging the ban by taking a ticket and fighting it in court.
"I see that down the road," he said.
In the interim, he explained, the group will wait for the outcome of the meeting and possibly pursue a letter-writing campaign to rally politicians to their cause.
"We'll put pressure that way," he added.
Stan Hentschel, owner of the Rocky Point Fishing Stop, said while it is still possible the fishing ban could be challenged in court, it would only be a last resort.
"This is the first time I've ever seen any amount of people coming together," he said.
Dave Raimondo, a resident of Shoridge Hills who was not at the meeting, said the "increasing fishing population both commercial and recreational has placed Shoreham residents and National Grid in a position of having to defend their private property rights and the coastal shoreline in Shoreham on behalf of Brookhaven residents."
"The Town is enforcing the laws on the books and not permitting access for activity on properties they cannot regulate or enforce," he said. "Further, the Town is protecting the environment in trust for the public from overutilization and exploitation."
Aphrodite Motalvo, a spokesperson for the DEC, said most of the beach is owned by LIPA and is accessible for fishing. While fishing is prohibited in the bathing area of the beach, fishermen can walk across the town area to proceed to a nonbathing area to fish, she said.
Assemblyman Marc Alessi said he had received some inquiries about the fishing ban from area residents and plans to meet with officials, including those from the Town and the DEC, to see what can be worked out. In regard to the public trust doctrine, Mr. Alessi, who is an attorney, said it is considered part of English Common Law and is . really open to interpretation by the court, meaning there is really no law upholding its provisions
"It's actually something that you have to go to court on," he said.
Mr. Alessi acknowledged residents' rights to walk below the mean high water mark along the beach, but also pointed out that the town and other property owners are entitled to restrict activity on their lands as well.
"But I don't think the town is doing anything devious," he added.
Ms. Bonner suggested the fishermen reach out to the private property owners and request permission to fish on their beaches. However, in regard to the town beach, Ms. Bonner said the fishermen would be trespassing should they walk across town property.
"I recognize their frustration in that this seems to be a ban on fishing, but it's meant to enforce a code that is already on our books," Ms. Bonner said.
(and has only recently been enforced against fishermen, selective prosecution)
Member
Update - letter writing campaign
All,
There is a letter writing campaign by the New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing. I have a copy of this letter. If you would like a copy of it to send to the town board, please email me at egoer@aol.com
There was a meeting yesterday with the board of the town with representatives from the local fisherman the The Brookhaven Business and Community Alliance . I am waiting to hear the details of what happened at this meeting, will post something as soon as I do.
John
Member
Stan Hentschel from Rocky Point Fishing Stop - recap
Here is Stans recap of the meeting :
<<Hi John,
I wish I could be more optimistic, however, I firmly believe the town has no plans to help either the fishermen or beach associations with the enforcement issue, or open Shoreham to fishing. We went to the meeting with all good intentions of the town helping both parties involved with workable solutions to the enforcement and access issues. The only good I saw were the solutions that the property association came up with in order to allow local fishermen to use the beaches. We are both on the same plane with these issues. But, that does not help the other 450,000 tax payers get access to the public domain. I would like to state that I met Dave Ramondo and Chris Calan, both of Shoreham, who were miss represented by various news articles. They are both supportive of the local anglers, but have, like us, issues with the"element" on the beaches that leave garbage and vandalize property. I saw pictures of garbage on the beaches that reminded me of a land fill and lean twos that were built out of trees that were cut down from residents property. They are both articulate and friendly men that have solid, workable solutions to our access problems. I look forward to working with them. It's a shame that the town does not have the initiative that the beach associations have.
John Sinner was nice enough to make time from his schedule to attend the meeting with me. He lives in Riverhead which has a workable solution to parking and access issues. As John was bringing up viable input to some of the problems, Jane Bonner chimes in and insults him. You can only guess how embarrassing that was to me. I have lost all respect for her and will do all I can next election year to have her removed. I feel she showed ignorance and insensitivity to the fishermen. She kept stating that the beach was designated by the town as a non fishing beach and always was. Then start proceedings to make it a fishing beach and access point that does not conflict with swimmers. It seems simple enough to me. The BBCA, fishermen and associations were addressing the issues looking for solutions, but the Town couldn't or did not want to come through. She was very angry about some of the posts on the NESW blog about her, and especially the posting of her address, which I agree was wrong. She also mentioned comments made by "egore" and "tiderunner" that got under her skin. Thank god someone from the town said that her comments had nothing to do about the Shoreham issues and we resumed the meeting in an orderly fashion.
All in all I came away from the meeting disappointed, realizing that there has to be changes made for the wants of the majority of Brookhaven's constituents. This is a terrible administration. If the residents and the fishermen are in agreement why can't the town help with solutions? I always believed in trying to solve problems by intelligent rather than radical means. However, as Willie Young said "let Stan be the nice guy, but it probably won't work" hit home. I realize now that it is like talking to a brick wall. They just don't get it!
Reviewing the blog on the NESW web site, I realize there has been a lot of solid input from passionate people as ourselves, some a little radical or could have been stated in a different way, however, in between the lines, it makes The Town of Brookhaven look like clowns.
"PUBLIC TRUST DOCTRINE" here I come!
Stan
>>
Member
John Skinner's recap of meeting
John Skinner, well known fisherman , author and editor for Noreast Magazine provides recap of the meeting :
<<On Friday, October 3rd, I attended a meeting held at Brookhaven Town Hall to address the fishing ban on the Brookhaven Town beaches in the vicinity of the Shoreham Town Beach.
I believe Friday’s meeting was held at the request of the Brookhaven Business Community Alliance (BBCA) leader Joe Kessel, and that request was made after the BBCA’s meeting held in Rocky Point on September 16 in which all in attendance who spoke showed a desire to keep Shoreham Beach open and to allow fishing access. I attended the September 16 meeting. Although I live in Riverhead Town, just past the eastern border of Brookhaven Town, I attended because I wanted to stay informed on the issue so that I could accurately report on it in my surf column. When it became clear that everyone speaking was on the same page and that enforcement of existing laws, especially regarding littering, was a major issue, I spoke to the audience about how Riverhead Town handles the situation. Stan Hentschel, the longtime owner of Rocky Point Fishing Stop, was at the meeting, and felt that the information I had to offer regarding Riverhead Town’s management of their beaches was useful and might be of interest to Brookhaven Town officials. When the October 3rd meeting at Town Hall was organized, Stan invited me to be one of two representatives from the fishing community. I’ve known Stan for 35 years, and would never hesitate to help him, but I expressed to him my concern that I’m not a Brookhaven resident. He indicated that he still wanted me there because he wanted me to share my Riverhead Town beach access management information with the Brookhaven Town officials. I did not ask to be part of the October 3rd meeting, but I agreed to Stan’s request. I have absolutely no interest in fishing any Brookhaven beaches.
In attendance at the meeting, to the best of my recall, were Joe Kessel and Stan representing the Business Alliance. David Raimondo representing the Shoreridge Hills residents, a gentleman representing another group of local residents, an attorney from the Town’s Law Dept, Mr. Morris – the head of the Park’s Dept., a representative from Public Safety (#2 man, I think), Jane Bonner – the Councilwoman for that area, and one of her aides. I was the representative of the fishing interests. Another fisherman was supposed to be there but couldn’t make it due to a family illness. Although Stan was there as a Business Alliance representative, I think we can picture him with two hats and consider him as a second fishing representative.
The meeting started with Stan detailing the tens of thousands of dollars the loss of beach access has cost his business. I then offered the following information regarding how Riverhead deals with beach access.
Since the elimination of fishing access in eastern Brookhaven Town, many people seeking to fish have moved onto the Riverhead beaches, and this includes the large immigrant population that was cited in both meetings as being responsible for the majority of the litter that resulted in the loss of beach access. They come by the vanload – entire families from numerous townships. How does Riverhead respond? They let them and everyone else fish. If you’re a resident, $15 for a beach lot permit and a free night fishing permit will get you 24/7/365 access to Riverhead’s roughly 15 miles of beaches from 8 access points. If you’re a non-resident, there are two options. You can buy a $200 parking permit that will cover you for the year. I see many of those in the beach lots. You can also buy a $35 daily permit. Although that sounds expensive to me, I see a lot of those too. To facilitate access, Riverhead Town makes beach-parking permits available at places such as tackle shops and delis. So the policy helps local businesses by generating some foot traffic in the stores. Contrast this with Brookhaven’s policy that costs Stan tens of thousands of dollars. So how does Riverhead deal with all of those people that now have legal access to the beach? – simple – they enforce the laws by having a police officer on an ATV ride the beach from border to border. When people who may be predisposed to doing something illegal, like littering, see a uniform and a badge, their behavior changes. If you park in a beach lot without a permit, expect a $100 ticket on your windshield. How do they allow 24-hour beach parking without the lots becoming partying hangouts – simple again – if you don’t have a night fishing permit and you’re doing something other than fishing – you get a $100 ticket too. Between all of those $100 tickets, $200 seasonal non-resident passes, $35 non-resident day passes, and $15 resident passes, Riverhead Town collects a substantial amount of money that can then support the cop on the ATV. Nobody is trying to split an atom here. This is a common sense approach to beach access management, and it works even with the addition of displaced people from Brookhaven. My question to the Brookhaven officials was “Tell me why you can’t do something like this?”
Sadly, I saw little interest on behalf of the Brookhaven Town officials in pursuing such an approach. There were many excuses. Here are a few. “Brookhaven Public Safety only has jurisdiction in the parks themselves, and not outside the park boundaries”, “we don’t have the money”, “we don’t have the staff”, “the beaches outside the park are the responsibility of County police”, “how will we get the ATVs on the beach?”, “we can’t ride the ATVs on people’s private beaches”, “our beaches are geologically different than Riverhead’s” (by this the person was referring to bluffs and jetties, just like we have in Riverhead).
I urged taking a higher-level view of the issue and consider the entire 15-mile stretch of Brookhaven North Shore frontage instead of focusing on just Shoreham. But heard back “all of those other places are private”.
At the September 16 meeting, a lady brought up the possibility of the Town using some land it owns in Rocky Point (old Pickwick Property?) to provide fishing access. Everyone at that meting thought that was an excellent suggestion. When Stan brought that up at Friday’s meeting, Jane Bonner acknowledged the Town land there, but said, “there’s no beach access there”. To which Stan replied, “Then make some”. To which Bonner responded “But the Tides are right next to there!” (The Tides is another beachfront residential community).
That exchange was a good representation of Bonner’s attitude that the beaches are private property, and that even allowing fishing access across Town-owned land in the vicinity of residential beach communities is unacceptable. The word “private” was spoken by her many times in the meeting. She said fishermen should be asking private property owners for fishing access, as she did in this quote from an article in the September 19th North Shore Sun, “Ms. Bonner suggested the fishermen reach out to private property owners and request permission to fish on their beaches…Ms. Bonner said the fishermen would be trespassing should they walk across town property.”
At one point during the meeting, Jane Bonner said (referring to me) that my presence at the meeting made her uncomfortable and that she found me to be “confrontational”. Yes, I confronted them with one township’s solution, but was told that Brookhaven’s situation is “unique”. When Bonner complained that someone on an online forum called her a criminal, I quickly pointed to her quote in the Sun where she said fishermen on Town property were trespassing. When she shot down Stan’s request for access through the Pickwick property because it was next to the Tides, I blurted out “That’s irrelevant!”
It is irrelevant. I told them that when I stand on a beach below the high water mark and look along the shoreline, all I see is beach. I don’t give a damn who owns the property on the top of the bluff. I fish, kayak, scuba dive, and skin dive all along the beaches from Wading River to Orient Point without ever having to think about whose beach I’m on, because I know whose beach I’m on, OUR BEACH!
She may call me confrontational, but as long as I have a pulse, I’m not going to sit politely and quietly and be told that I have to ask permission of shorefront property owners to do what I love and have grown up doing.
A few other points. They didn’t want to talk about the Public Trust Doctrine, and were generally dismissive of it. Through all of this, no one has yet to tell me precisely which Brookhaven Town code will be violated should you park legally at the Shoreham Town Beach, walk below the high water mark beyond the park boundary, and then go fishing. I think there is going to be a closed meeting among Brookhaven officials regarding beach access and then another similar to what we just had, but I’m not positive on that.
After meeting the beachfront community representatives, it’s clear to me that they are not our problem. I’ve read numerous letters from Mr. Raimondo to the local papers that made him sound like an enemy to the fishermen. I don’t feel this way at all after meeting him. The most positive aspect of this meeting came after the meeting broke up and Stan, Raimondo, myself, and the other property association representative (sorry, can’t remember the name) spoke amongst ourselves. These people don’t seem to care if there are local surfcasters on the beaches. Their issue is with the very large number of immigrants trashing their beaches. They had many pictures, and they told us they begged the Town for help enforcing the litter laws. Please refrain from bashing any of the residents on the discussion boards. What you write on these boards is read by Bonner. Bonner mentioned Tom Farrel’s name several times. Both resident representatives knew I had written a book about surf fishing, so I guess they were on the boards too.
I’ve done what Stan asked me to do – I presented Brookhaven Town officials with a solution that works in neighboring Riverhead Town. My position is that the taxpayers of Brookhaven Town are entitled to 24/7/365 access to their beaches. Even if the Town restricted that access to only its residents and didn’t offer non-resident access, I would feel that these efforts have been successful. Unfortunately, I don’t see that kind of access as a possibility in the current Brookhaven Town political climate. It’s time for a Brookhaven resident to take my place at any further meetings. Something on a small scale may be able to be worked out that will benefit a few local casters. I thank God I don’t live in Brookhaven Town.
>>
This sucks, real lousy news. The meeting that darkskies reported on, it said Jane Bonner didn't show up? What an arrogant, smug, condescending *****! Looks like more aggressive action is needed?Originally Posted by rpsurf5
Senior Member
This is lame, sounds like they were feeding us BS all along.RP, you should get a bunch of guys together, go up there, and go fishing under the mean high tide line, let them ticket you, and go to court. Time for some serious show of strength, the meetings don't seem to be cutting it.
Member
on-line petition
If you live in and/or fish the Town of Brookhaven, we need you to sign the petition put together by the New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing at :
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/shorehamban/
Please spread the word and have your friends and neighbors sign this also, regardless of whether they fish or not. Everyone pays high taxes for access to parks and beaches, you are being denied access to a resource you pay for.
Stand up and be counted , please sign at :
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/shorehamban/
Thanks,
John
Senior Member
I went and signed that petition, John, wish all the members here could see their way to sign it. Sounds like the town officials are playing games with you fishermen, and you have given them nothing but respect in return.
Seems like one logical step would be to make sure that Foley and Ms prima donna Bonner are campaigned against in the election.
We need to make sure they lose, and their loss comes as a direct result of their elitism and apathy towards fishermen.
Senior Member
I signed it too, seems like all the town has is lame excuse after lame excuse.
Here's my slogan for the next election to NOT get Bonner elected:
"Bonner is Bourgeouis. Do you want an elitist to represent you, or do you want real people?
Dump Bonner the Bourgeouis! Elect ______, a representative of REAL people."
Administrator
Here's one of the petitions that is circulating. I edited it, made some grammatical corrections, and added a few lines about the Public Trust Doctrine.
Feel free to C&P and send it out. Remember folks, even if you don't fish in Long Island, or the Town of Brookhaven, this issue could potentially affect you down the road as more towns decide to make excuses for violating our Constitutionally protected Access rights.
Thank you to all who take the time to fill this out and send it in.
Although there is a lot of anger out there at the empty words of the council members, please make every effort to NOT direct your anger at MS Bonner, or write anything that could be mis-construed as unprofessional or representative of fishermen as a group.
If you have anger at Ms Bonner, the time to draw on that is during the elections when all citizens are entitled to campaign for and vote for her opponent. That's how democracy works.
We really need to overwhelm them with responses, or we will not be taken seriously.
-----------------------------------
[Date Here]
Brain X. Foley Supervisor
Steve Fiore Councilman
Jane Bonner Councilwoman
Kathleen Walsh Councilwoman
Connie Kepert Councilwoman
Timothy P. Mazzei Councilman
Keith Romaine Councilman
Town Board of Brookhaven
1 Independence Hill
Farmingville, N.Y. 11738
Dear Town Board Members:
The Town of Brookhaven has 153 miles of coastline and a population of 448,519, with only 14 areas to go fishing legally.
Recreational fishing is the number 1 pastime in the United States.
Saltwater anglers are estimated at 10 million individuals in the United States. Salt and freshwater fishing combined add over $60 billion to the U.S. economy.
Many town residents find walking along the beach and fishing one of their favorite pastimes as it is affordable and beneficial to their quality of life.
Yet one board member in their zeal to benefit a few, has made a public statement that anyone going fishing through Shoreham Town Park property would be treated as a criminal.
Why has the Town closed Shoreham Park on September 1/08 to all users? This clearly benefits a few at the expense of many residents.
As a fisherman and a voter, I find the fishing policies of this board to be repressive. I feel their purpose is put into effect to benefit a few wealthy shore front home owners, so they may have their own private beach.
This action by the town also violates the Public Trust Doctrine, which simplistically stated guarantees the right of all Americans access to all outside riparian waters up to the mean high tide line. I ask you to reconsider your actions here, partly because you are violating the Constitutional rights of any fishermen you deny access to.
Moreover, if this was challenged in a court of law, it could set a very dangerous precedent for the rest of the towns and boroughs in Long Island, as one by one they were forced to grant access under this Doctrine.
According to some sources, challenges to the Public Trust Doctrine have been successfully upheld in court procedings in the last 5 years. Most of the fishermen plaintiffs who have put forth these cases have prevailed.
Here is a link to further reading on the Public Trust Doctrine:
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...trust+doctrine
I encourage you to have your legal staff review the liability and expenses of the town fighting a Constitutionally mandated principle. How much better it would be to create a reasonable settlement with these fishermen, and save the town the embarrassment of possibly losing a landmark case.
All we want is the reasonable access we are guaranteed under the Constitution. Thank you for your time in reading this.
Please make no mistake about these petitions. We are tired of being patronized, and are prepared to marshall whatever resources necessary, through voting in the elections to oust members who have disregarded these rights, or taking the town to court to ask for enforcement of our Constitutional rights in a Federal forum.
We will stand together as voters, citizens, fishermen, and respected contributors to the community to ensure our Constitutional rights are no longer being trampled on.
Sincerely,
--------------------------------
Senior Member
Very well written, bunkerjoe.
Administrator
I'm putting the link up again for the Public Trust Doctrine. Some of our members have been researching pertinent cases and putting up the results, in case anyone up there was considering a lawsuit against the town.
I can't get into specifics, but as site administrator I can tell you that some gov't entities have been visiting as guests, and reviewing that thread.
I believe some of the resources being offered here could be used to commence a Public Trust case against the town of Brookhaven. It would be unwise for them to try to defend a case of this magnitude because of the potential ancillary consequences.
I hope someone is mad enough to get this started, as it seems like the town is stalling.
Here is the link, feel free to cite anything you read here, in part or its entirety:
http://stripersandanglers.com/Forum/...ead.php?t=1044
Member
Bunkerjoe,
Thanks for posting this. Legal action is certainly on the table.
Here are some other relevant links. Seems Jersey , CT and Rhode Island all actively promote access through public trust doctrine. Even New York State has info on PTD on its web site . I dont know why the Town of Brookhaven feels they are immune to the laws of the United States of America.
Here are the links :
http://www.nyswaterfronts.com/waterf...blic_trust.asp
http://www.crmc.state.ri.us/presenta...TD_Work_RI.ppt
http://www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?a...epNav_GID=1635
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/cmp/acces...s_handbook.pdf
Senior Member
rpsurf - Maybe you could get some free legal help from:
http://www.probono.net/ny/
Member
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/shorehamban/
835 signatures and counting. We need more , if you have not signed this yet , please do.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/shorehamban/
Please spread the word and have your friends and neighbors sign this also, regardless of whether they fish or not. Everyone pays high taxes for access to parks and beaches, you are being denied access to a resource you pay for.
Stand up and be counted , please sign at :
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/shorehamban/
Thanks,
John
Administrator
Bump to the top. This is important, folks. The next place that may be closed could be your favorite fishing place.
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